Why is there a selection tool delay in SketchUp (under Windows 10)?

win10
windows10

#1

If you want to report the problem you’re having with the selection tool or are looking for suggestions on fixing it please go to this thread. Selection Tool process is slow, unbearably slow

Over the past few days I’ve read a number of threads on the topic on this site and others that included a number of fixes. I’m still having problems but I’m not starting this topic to get help with my select tool lag problems.

What I want to know is why does Sketchup Make freeze when attempting to select an object? Does anyone know? Have the developers been able to recreate the problem and profile the application to track the cause? If anyone knows what’s the problem?

And I don’t mean an answer like “you haven’t uninstalled xxx windows updated” or “your graphics card is probably out of date” or “you’re graphics settings need to be.yyy”

I mean something along the lines of “when invoking this openGL function the call times out then falls back to another function on systems with intel graphics because [some reason]” or “there’s an incompatibility with the anti-aliasing support on some implementations that is causing something”. Not that those are the problem but just an example of what a specific reason might sound like"

In none of the threads I read did anyone point out what the problem is. Has anyone been able to figure that out?


#2

Some of the posters in these threads get technical:

https://communities.intel.com/thread/113216


https://communities.intel.com/thread/112299


#3

Thank you for those links but it doesn’t address why Sketchup is having this problem. I was hoping maybe the developers monitor the forum and comment.

The oddest thing about the problem is you can select by right clicking an object with no delay but left clicking causes a delay. Not sure why they can’t just change the code so selecting by left clicking is more like right clicking or even just CTRL-A…


#4

Yes it does.

(1) The evidence suggests that the issues with the recent Windows 10 updates, are not specific to SketchUp.

(2) That the issues are graphics driver related,… and OpenGL in particular.

(3) That the hardest hit are the driver suites for older Intel GPUs (3rd and 4th generation.) But that some Nvidia driver suites also have issues.

Yes, this is odd indeed.

It’s not that simple. SketchUp uses a yearly release cycle. They usually only issue maintenance releases as late as February. After this they are deep into the work for the next year’s release that typically comes out in late November.

It’s not trivial (nor inexpensive) to recompile 4 editions (Make/Pro on Win and OSX) in each of 12 different languages (48 total installer packages) for each version needing fixes. (Then only SketchUp 2017 was tested with and supports Windows 10, so it’s unlikely any older version would get any win10 specific updates anyway.)

I do not believe that any version of SketchUp yet released, officially supports the Win10 Anniversary or Creators Updates.

Right-clicking causes the context menu to appear. But it is a nifty clue.

Another user of an older SketchUp version on older hardware has found relief by switching to a 32-bit SketchUp build. This is also a interesting clue. (There have been issues with the OpenGL library in 64-bit graphics driver in past cycles,… again not SketchUp specific.)

They do when they need to, and have the time. (Keep in mind that the forum is not the official pro support interface. It is for general free collaborative support by the community of users.)

No guarantees, but I’ll ping Mark who has been working on the issue: @mchandler

Back in the thread opener, you asked for:

Provided that it does not violate policy (or the security of customer’s computers,) in revealing the exact cause (if it is known) …

… and reminding the readership (and Mark) that you are a Make user and are not (per EULA) entitled in any support at all (much less this level of technical support,) …

What good would it serve the community to have Mark spend the time publicly posting a detailed technical explanation, instead of actually working directly on the problem (to fix this and add improvements for the next release) ?

How could it even help you to know this nitty gritty detail of a reason, assuming there is only one cause to what people have been experiencing in selection delay ? (Ie, are you a graphics driver programmer that can produce an updated driver for your very old 3rd generation Intel HD 2500 graphics ?)


#5

Knowledge for the sake of knowledge :smiley: .

I have learned quite a lot about how computers work in practice from stories of odd bugs like this one. I think many people on this forum are very curious about the world around us and would like to know why this issue occurs and not simply how to get around it.

That said I can understand if Trimble doesn’t want to spend the time explaining it here because they probably don’t get much out of it.


#6

I would love it if we could “just change the code” and the problem would go away. Unfortunately, it’s been extremely difficult to reproduce the issue in-house. We’ve even gone so far as to purchase older systems equipped with the problematic Intel graphics processors. I, personally, have installed and upgraded Windows 10 and the accompanying updates more times than I can remember in an effort to duplicate the problem.

Bottom line is that we’re trying to fix the problem. I’m part of the QA team, but I work closely with the developers, and if they have some info that can be shared, I’ll pass it along.

Thanks,
Mark Chandler


#7

But you are a nice person. There are nefarious people in this world that can use this kind of specific knowledge as exploits for their nasty purposes. (ie, trojans, worms, etc.)

Generally, companies do not publicly release such details until after a patch has been released. And then they still might give only a vague description about the exploit / bug.

Such detailed information as was requested, is not usually shared unless the receiver is an employee, or an affiliate under a legal non-disclosure agreement.


#8

I’m not sure you understand what I’m asking but I appreciate you taking the time to share some information I wasn’t aware of.

Most likely not in this case. It sounds like it’s an issue with a third party library, either microsoft or intel with publicly known endpoints and the info would pertain to calling those methods and not any proprietary code on Trimble’s side.

I read a number of different threads on different sites and I forget where I saw it but one post sounded like it came from a Trimble developer who had mentioned they were able to recreate it. That’s what caused the frustration that made me start this post. If you haven’t been able to recreate it things are different.

If it helps this is what I’ve observed.

It’s not selecting an object that causes the delay. It’s any left click in the drawing space. That could be clicking to select an object, clicking on a blank space to deselect an object, double clicking to edit a group/component, double clicking an empty space to close component edit, clicking and dragging to select a group of components, basically anytime I click or double click in the drawing area with the selection tool.

Right clicking does not cause that problem. I can right click and select an item from the pop up menu such as Erase with no delay. I can right click and object and hit escape to select an object and there is no delay and I have the option selected. Hitting CTRL-A. If an object, such as the surface of a rectangle is selected, and I right click and select “Select” from the pop up many and click on any of the options such as all connected, bounding box, etc. there is no delay.

It does not appear to be the act of selecting an object per se but whatever happens between the object selection and the initial left click, inclusive of the click.

I’m running Latest Win10 Creator’s, Intel Core I5 with onboard IvyBridge-DT GT1 (Intel HD 2500) graphics
Graphics driver is current at 15.33.43.4425 I’m running on older chipset 10.0.15063.0 because for some reason upgrading is causing issues.

I had the delay when I made this post. For some reason I don’t have it today.


#9

Any automatic updates yesterday or today ?


#10

If you save the file (Save As) w/ a different name, the 1st selection click on an element works perfectly, then it reverts back to the same selection tool lag problem. A clue perhaps?


#11

Selection tool (Make '17) is incredibly slow again under new Windows update. Uninstalling update did not resolve. Frustrated with decision to make sketchup 18 browser based. Performance is limited by wifi quality. Not sure what I’m looking for in terms of a response.

Thanks - I’ve loved using this program for about 5 years now.


#12

Try updating the graphics drivers from directly from Intel. The typical problem is Windows screws up the graphics drivers for the Intel GPU. Either try updating or roll the GPU drivers back to a previous known good version.


#13

Wow, thanks for the incredibly prompt reply!

Unfortunately I’m primarily a cabinetmaker, and I have no idea how to do what you just described. If you have a minute to explain (in very basic terms) how to update the GPU driver, that would be helpful. If not, I’ll do some googling.


#14

Go to the Intel site and search for drivers for your GPU. Download the latest one and install it.

I use SketchUp mainly for woodworking stuff. I’d be interested in seeing what you do.


#15

It looks like I have the latest driver.

The frustrating thing is that a week ago I could do everything I needed with this program. Today, I have one hour while my kids are sleeping, and i spend it trying to select an object because of something that happened to my computer while I was sleeping. Gah!

Here’s an image of an older project I drew. It never became more than a proposal, sadly.

Not sure what else to try. Thanks for your help.


#16

Well, the next step would be to try rolling back the driver to the previous version.

That’s an interesting piece. I gather the cabinet making is your business. If so, you should be using SketchUp Pro instead of Make. SketchUp 2018 Pro has an option to get around these issues that Windows updates causes.


#17

Try this Intel driver & support assistant to check for Intel updates (more than just graphics related update and given the latest security issues related to Intel chips, its good to be updated.)

To roll back a driver, go to your Windows Start and search for Device Manager > open Display adapters > r-click on your Intel graphics > Properties > Driver. If you can roll back a driver, the Roll Back Driver button will be enabled (not grayed out.) Sometimes the older driver has better OpenGL coding.


#18

You guys are being super helpful.

The intel assistant keeps giving me an error screen, and the roll back option is grayed-out.

I found and downloaded the driver for my graphics card through intel’s website, but after running the exe file, it tells me that it’s not compatible with my computer.

You can keep responding if you have time, but I think I’m in some sort of inescapable loop.
Thanks again.


#19

I’m just curious:
Does this cause problems for other programs?
Are other people having this same problem?


#20

Sorry for the multiple replies as I try to figure this out.

I installed Make 2016 and disabled hardware acceleration:
Window>Preferences>OpenGL Unclick Use Hardware Acceleration

And that worked. Not ideal.