Just asking: Are your viewports vector or hybrid rendered?
(I wouldn’t use these for screen/projector display as the vector lines wouldn’t look any different from raster renders anyway). Agree that vector rendering is slow for complex models.
They are hybrid drawings for presentation drawings. The feature does not work at a certain threshold. When you start experimenting, I can print from a hybrid rendered window and what I see on the screen is not what prints through the direct print dialogue box. Printing renders everything as opposed to screen rendering which drops objects and takes 10 minutes to render or crash. Time for Trimble to address this or remove hybrid rendering. I have other examples where the screen rendering does not conform to the settings. I will find the video. Many of my colleagues call SketchUp a toy and this behavior confirms their bias. I need a tool that I can count on. I can count on Rhino. SketchUp only works to a low threshold of complexity. Trimble needs to level with Mac users on why the screen rendering with 32 gb of ram and a Vega Pro graphics card does not work with their hybrid rendering. Another experiment is to save and Then send a raster rendering to A new layout. It will print. If I update A layout file with Multiple pages, it takes many minutes for the beach ball to stop spinning. Many times it never does. Same SketchUp file. So I cannot rely on it
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Watch this movie
So can you explain why this happens, Colin???
Hi Colin, As a further follow up, I’ve been reading some old “back issues” of the Forum re LayOut performance and found this (I think) really excellent analysis (from JQL back in April, 2016, and then again in April 2018), of what LayOut “IS”, versus what it can, and probably “should” BE …
This was posted before my time, and I just discovered it, not sure how long you have been attending your post, did you see this? I’ve made several posts speculating on real necessity and practicality/feasibility of rewriting LayOut code from the ground up, but I actually like JQL’s idea of a BRAND NEW SU PRO program addition called “Documents”!
Please read on if you have not seen this … and maybe comment?
JQL, 4/'18:
I guess many of us followed the same logic when Sketchup+Layout started to be pushed beyond what they were meant for.
Sketchup, if you remember, wouldn’t cope well with big buildings. Nowadays it does, but it had to evolve.
In the meantime Layout had already been created for Sketchup thinking in Sketchup as a sidekick and not as the main basis for our architectural work.
So, the real problem for Layout was a mismatch between reality (what the users started doing with it) and intention (being a fast presentation tool for simple sketchup models).
Considering that now, what users want, is a full featured and truly pro solution for presenting 2D output all the way to construction documentation.
I think a full revision of Layout should be implemented.
However, this revision should go so deep that it would probably be better to have a new addition to the Sketchup Pro package called Documents (or whatever).
Sketchup would have:
- Sketchup - for 3d models;
- Style builder - which I never used in my life;
- Layout - which I’m forced to used but isn’t exactly what I need.
- Documents - which wouldn’t follow the Layout logic of beautiful presentations but a pro logic of immaculate tools for construction documentation and 3D model data extraction.
Maybe layout could also be Documents, but I think that would require a massive backstage change and some feature drop in terms of viewport handling.
I have a suggestion that I’ve tried describing before: what if Layout would loose the 3D viewports and would stick to a 2D image of the sketchup viewport?
I’ve noticed that a very complex 2D drawing in sketchup (the equivalent to a model section with full details) renders in a fraction of a second in Layout, while the same output rendered directly from the original sketchup model, takes seconds if not minutes.
So, this means, the solution for Layout could be to have Sketchup convert the 3D scenes into 2D drawings that would open in a new kind of Layout viewport that could not be orbited around. Updating it would mean a regeneration of these 2D drawings and not a full 3D model inside a viewport.
Then Layout would be fast and useful for our standard architectural output and development team would be able to focus on tools for drafting, annotation and data extraction.
I made a post, even more complex than this one, that would describe these 2D viewports:
JQL, April 2016:
Layout is slugish.
The first time I saw layout in action on an official video I saw an example model (very small and simple) and someone inserting it in a sheet as a viewport, rotating the viewport and dimensioning it very fast in 3D.
I immediatelly immersed in the dream, at that time, that I could do this with my buildings.
We were at version 8 and Layout 2 if I’m not mistaken… I learnt the hard way that if I really wanted to use Sketchup+Layout effectivelly, I had to work in sketchup and prepare things first as much as I could and only send the model, with every viewport setup as a scene, into layout.
Otherwise, it would be, put simply, impossible.
Layout has grown faster since then but it’s still very slow and I think everyone that has to deal with fairly complex models in Layout faces the same issues even with super GPU+CPU combos, as is my case.
So the result is that if you want to be effective in Layout you must endup setting up scenes that represent 2D views of the model and will remain untouched in layout. No change will take place in them that requires revealing they are actually 3D views of the model.
The only requirement we have on these viewports is usually setting up scale, move them around, and framing them.
The workflow is pretty standard by now: setup scenes and stick with them on Layout and if needed, change them on Sketchup and reload in layout.
I know of no one that even dreams on rotating their complex models in a LO viewport.
So, my conclusion is that Layout is basically used to display static 2D views of Sketchup scenes and if you feel this is true too then…
Why is Layout dealing with 3D viewports all the time?..
When any change to a viewport makes Layout stall?
When any time a model is reloaded Layout stalls?
When any missed double click ruins viewport camera?
When this seems to be the main reason overall usability drops so much?
When that’s the reason many (most) users think Layout is unuseable?
And when it’s a feature most of us are not using?
Add to this the fact that any manipulation on a 3D model viewport from Layout’s side will break its direct link with Sketchup and we’re getting to my wish:
I wish that when inserting a model I could generate viewports as 2D vector graphics (SVG probably) rather than the heavier 3D model viewports that I don’t need.
So I envision the following:
1 - An easy way to choose if you want your model treated as 3D, 2D or 2D+3D - When inserting a model the options below would popup and the same thing would happen when using “Send to Layout…” from within SU. On existing Layout files the options would be managed through File > Document Setup > References.
2 - Insert Model as full 3D model - This would behave exactly as we have right now where the model is represented as editable 3D Viewports - It would be the Heavy and Slow version;
3 - Insert Model as a Set of 2D graphics corresponding to Sketchup Scenes - No scene in the model would be 3D, instead it would be replaced by a 2D graphic. Hopefully this would be the fastest import though I imagine converting scenes into graphics when reloading could take some time. (at least the same time it does now… 
)
4 - Insert a Model in a mixed 3D/2D - Where you can choose if a viewport treats it’s scene as a 2D graphic or a 3D model. Basically this will give you fine tune control at the expense of a less simpler setup.
- Raster image - As a jpg, exactly as a 2D viewport on Raster;
- Vector image - As an SVG, exactly as a 2D viewport on Vector;
- Hybrid image - SVG lines, on top of a 2D raster image.
The beauty of this would be that it could seamlessly continue the existing Layout workflow without the pain of each viewport being a full 3D model:
- You could still use low raster quality for edit but high for export;
- You could still export simple DWG and PDF’s wich would look exactly the same;
- Styles could still influence an SVG graphic as long as it has the same organizing structure as a Sketchup file;
- Framing a fixed scale 2D graphic could easily be achieved through masking or using the existing scale handling wich is very natural to 2D work.
- Rotating and moving are intuitivelly simple to understand that still would work.
- Finally each viewport could simply be a 2D Sketchup file exported from one or several flattened scenes and linked to Layout through a folder in sync with the layout file.
Basically, this would turn Layout into the kind of software it seems to be. A 2D vector graphics software with some tools that look like Architectural tools and a very neat but hardly usable ability to manipulate 3D views.
I hope this gets some attention and I hope it leads to better ideas.
Thanks and best regards,
João
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I hope to give an update to some of what I said in a few days time.
I will tag @Adam, he’s the one who should read your post.
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Because, sometimes I incorporate 3D perspective views in my concept, planning or construction documents.
I’m appreciate that this is yours and many others’ experience but it’s not mine.
Not my experience.
There is an option now to disable this double click to edit the model in a viewport.
I’m not sure about this statement myself.
Are you refering to Layout? Layout is what I use every working day to produce detailed construction documents…
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your (6) quotes and responses … point of clarification … I assume you realize that these were not my words, rather they were quotes form “JQL” back in April 2016 and April 2018 respectively.
Although admittedly some of JQL’s comments are dated, (SU & LO have had some improvements since then) I thought his idea of a brand new type of LayOut viewport (called Documents) that would provide a 2D “snapshot” (Scene) of the imbedded SU 3D model was interesting … This would potentially be a much more lightweight code that could perform much faster than LayOut’s current sluggish handling of the entire 3D model …
It is creative thinking for dealing with some of the inherent code limitations that LayOut seems to suffer. My goal is to simply see LayOut somehow get better at what it does …
For LayOut to produce Construction Documents efficiently, maybe it could offer 2D viewports (Documents), as an option to the conventional SU 3D model database?
I’m encouraged that Colin is forwarding this to Adam on the team for further consideration …
We shall see …
Thanks Colin,
Looking forward to your feedback …
Any viewports in LayOut have one option to auto render, meaning any time you change the viewport or the model itself, the viewport redraws itself. And there is a lock feature. If you turn off the auto render and lock the viewport as well, you effectively have a 2D snapshot.
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Some of the things I have not been able to talk about are mentioned in this updated article:
Look in the LayOut bug fixes list in particular. The article includes a download link.
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I downloaded the new sketchup
Absolutely no change in layout, I am waiting on it right now, it says not responding.
Sketchup 2020 2.0 has frozen up 3 times in the last hour of usage, just trying to make changes.
I am working with fairly small files, inexcusable for an update not to work with all the complaints for months, no change.
It may recover a little faster, but that’s not much of an improvement as far as I am concerned.
Sketchup is now the YUGO of 3d software thanks to Trimble.
Never had any issues with sketchup until 2020, been using skethcup for over 15 years.
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Is your graphic card the 730? What driver version?
Nvidia GeForce GTX 1660 Super
customized for Sketchup layout
Driver 26.21.14.4108
40GB ts,
This may be unrelated to the other issues. I have a sample file that does lock up LayOut. Are you able to send me the files you are trying?
I can’t send the layout, it exceeds my limit of 9k even when I Zip it.
I always use clean 3 before I import into layout.
Rosas CA Deluxe 7x10.zip (2.9 MB)
My apologies Bill.
Admittedly my SU models are not complex in terms of geometry but my construction documents are detailed - they include multiple viewports, extensive linework and much text and run to upwards of 30 A3 pages (although having re-read Nick Sonder’s book I’m now breaking up my document sets into multiple LO files) - and I don’t have any performance issues.
I don’t say this to deny or denigrate other peoples poor experience of Layout but just to say that some of us (many I’d say…?) have a good experience…
Your example may be good for this other problem I’m seeing. My test is to insert the model, render it as raster, and although the model is somewhat demanding, changing to vector in LayOut takes a long time. I have other example files that never finish switching to vector.
My suspicion is that there is something in the model that would also show issues in SketchUp, but the LayOut test is quicker to show that something isn’t right.
So, I don’t think 2020.2 helps this model, but I will get the developers to look at it to find out why it is being so demanding.
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Thanks Paul, no apology is necessary … We probably all use LayOut a little differently.
I’m guessing you are on a Windows platform, where you have the option of bringing more CPU (and especially GPU) “horsepower” to the LO game. I’m using Mac OS, and my options are more limited.
And yes, along with all the user assembled “best practices” workflows (really workarounds for LO limitations), I have been using Sonders method of breaking up my Construction Document sets into multiple LO docs for some time (sometimes even down to one LO doc per A4 sheet!) - it does help the performance a bit!
I’m glad you are having a good experience with LayOut … maybe you have some workflow tips that are not as common knowledge as you think … if so, share the wealth with the beleaguered!
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A little humor for you Mac users…
I was presenting the use of detail scrapbooks in Layout at the last basecamp. Several folks following along were having issues with Layout responding. I asked if they were on Mac or PC? All were on Mac, so I (jokingly) told them that all the large round dispensaries outside the doors were Mac deposit cans…right then my MSI laptop crashed mid demonstration. Oh those Mac gods were watching!
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