Why is Layout so terrible with Vector?

[Nathank9000]

I’ve had just about enough of Layout being GLACIALLY SLOW.

My machine is an AMD Ryzen 9 7950X3D, with 128 GB DDR5 SDRAM (maximum possible on this motherboard), with a 16-GB videocard, and liquid cooling. The issue isn’t the machine performance, it never gets above 5-10% CPU / GPU utilization, but it’s ridiculously SLOW.

I follow the best practices to keep models clean and lightweight. I have libraries of highly optimized symbols and cabinetry. I don’t use super-huge textures. I run Goldilocks, Cleanup^3, and other extensions to clean up stray trash.

And still - I dread the phase of going to Layout and creating sections, diagrams, and dimensions. Because it’s SLOW AS ****.

I tried it with the Classic and new Graphic Engines.

The only thing that works somewhat is keeping everything Raster, but then I can’t “hit” the dimensions and leader lines - it’s too pixelated. Even with Viewport quality set to High.

The moment I change anything to Vector, performance goes straight to hell. Everything takes MINUTES. Clicking into or out of a viewport. Panning the model in the viewport. Everything.

I don’t even have any high-poly models in the viewport - I even went through and excluded everything like plants and coffee cups, so they don’t take up rendering time. It’s literally just cabinetry and basic appliances. WHY IS IT SO ■■■■■■■ SLOW?

I’m at my wits’ end. It’s taking me an entire day to do the dimensions for a kitchen and I can’t.

What are my options?

[Anssi]

@Nathank9000

I don’t even have any high-poly models in the viewport

That depends on what you consider high-poly. Also, in this respect the goals have changed.
When I started using SketchUp, “High-poly” started at something like 100 000 entities. Today, SketchUp copes quite happily with models 10-20 times bigger. But when you take the models into LayOut, you multiply the demand for resources for every model viewport you create, and using Vector or Hybrid rendering multiplies that yet more.
LayOut is not alone in this. I know how to put AutoCad too on its knees by putting a plethora of paperspace viewports on a sheet.

IMO the only thing you need vector rendering for is exports to CAD. For output on paper through PDF High resolution raster output without JPEG compression is enough. For working with LayOut you never need vector rendering - in the cases where you need it for output, you can use Output Override.

@Nathank9000

Clicking into or out of a viewport. Panning the model in the viewport

Why are you ■■■■■■■ doing that? You should set scenes in SketchUp to get the views you need. In LayOut you can drag the viewport borders instead of “panning”.

[PaulMcAlenan]

Are you able to share a file?

It might be worthwhile seeing if others would have the same glacial slowness.

[endlessfix]

Layout can be maddeningly slow, it’s true. It’s pretty easy to ask too much of it and grind it to a halt, happens to me often, and I too frequently use “construction language” when working with Layout. I’ve heard all the thoughtful advice from others: have careful linked templates, never use vector rendering, avoid all high poly geometry, all good advice, well meant and appreciated. But often from people who design houses, I don’t, we all need different things from our software. I have a model I’m trying to push through CD that has about 4 million edges now, bigger than it should be but thats where it ended up and life cracks on, the tiger’s gotta eat, so I’m watching the beach ball spin even in raster with viewport set to low, and struggling to dimension. Have you tried to infer an edge with the viewports set to low? I agree it’s a mushy mess, can’t tell where anything is, try to pull a 1/4" dimension on an arch-d sheet in raster. I can hear a bunch of architects saying why would you need to pull 1/4"? but I work in .001". I can split the 6 page doc up into multiple files, bit of a pain, hard to call that workaround a workflow. There is no hope of outputting todays file in vector override, Layout will work all night and fail to comply, my drawings get printed, but they also get looked at closely on large screens so raster high is just not as good but it will have to do. The point is that even with the best will and care in the world, Layout can be frustrating so I understand the OP needing to vent.

That said Layout has gotten much better in the long time I’ve been using it and show great features improvement in the last few years and I appreciate the improvement.

There are some tricks to making it all work, sounds like the OP is aware of most of them (with the exception of preserving scenes/viewports unmodified, bad practice but not really a speed issue). It’s true that big means different things to different people, what is the edge count on your sketchup model?

[Anssi]

One thing I wonder about is why people are so obsessed with Vector graphics? Outside of CNC manufacturing, digital devices are all raster. Pen plotters were a thing when I started with CAD but I don’t know if they exist anywhere any more. A colleague had a research project in the mid-80s to build a VR “planetarium” that used a laser beam to project vector lines to the interior surface of a dome-like structure. Nowadays all displays, printers etc. show a rasterized image.

[francisquitof]

@Anssi

One thing I wonder about is why people are so obsessed with Vector graphics?

In my case, if I have to get a construction approval, I must present all the documentation as dwg file with all the drawings as vectors, for printing I just use high resolutions raster viewports.

[Anssi]

@francisquitof

n my case, if I have to get a construction approval, I must present all the documentation as dwg file with all the drawings as vectors

For me too, DWG output or postprocessing in an illustration application is the only thing I use vector output for.

[JQL]

Could you, eventually, create a different LOD, for some of the components in order to simplify them in certain scenes?

Would it be better if you exported Sketchup scenes as 2D drawings and send those to Layout?

• Export to DWG
• Import DWG into SKP
• Insert 2D SKP in Layout.

I know 2D DWG exported from Sketchup and reimported saved my life once

@Anssi

One thing I wonder about is why people are so obsessed with Vector graphics? Outside of CNC manufacturing, digital devices are all raster. rasterized image.

Because it’s crispier and easier to dimension in Layout and also generates great looking and lighter PDF files. Using those vectors in illustration apps is also more satisfying. In the long run though, it’s because AutoCAD is vector based and we must comply! Yes sir!

[AK_SAM]

There’s no question that vector graphics look crisper, and far more readable (especially for details) than raster. The key reason is scaling.

I’m sure you know this, but for others reading…monitors are vastly different in resolution. If you create an image at 1980x1080 and then a person opens it on a display that’s 2160x1440 then your pixels get zoomed in by 133% and the result are fuzzy edges/blurry text, etc. This doesn’t matter too much for photographs but it does for technical drawings, symbols, text etc. (JPG compression doesn’t work well on text)
Then you need to account for all the different settings people have in their PDF readers, such as how much they’ve zoomed in to their window.

To get around this fuzziness you need a high enough resolution to combat scaling effects. Then your file size blows out. LO only allows up to 200dpi from memory - not particularly high, though using A1 sheet sizes makes it more acceptable.

The amount of detail you can fit on one sheet is also limited by Pixels. Whereas I can prepare a Masterplan on a single sheet and allow people to zoom in using their PDF tool of choice, we don’t need to issue lots of sheets. One sheet is much better to convey the design intent and it is easier to manage iterations, markups, etc.

I also struggle greatly with LayOut, though Vector rendering is just one of the performance gripes. I find it’s trying to sync when I don’t want it to, it takes forever to update a reference, (even if one tiny thing has changed), autosave, etc; from what I can tell, it seems to process a huge amount of unnecessary things, and doens’t make use of background CPU processing. Text is also a massive issue, even with a modest amount of multi-line text or a few dozen dimensions, my powerful laptop just can’t handle it.

Like NathanK9000, I only send Scenes to LO if they are “light” eg flat faces and few 3d objects. The SKP model contains a lot more 3d items/tags/etc that show trees and other details not needed in drawing production. But LO seems to need to process all of it, and that’s where the disconnect lies between SKP’s “freedom and useability” versus LO’s “we have to carefully manage your workflow to suit the software”,…one wrong click can spell disaster on a tight deadline!
Splitting SKP models up into multiple files, having multiple LO files, it’s time-intensive (and brain-intensive) to manage it all. It’s great for small practices of a few people, but can’t scale well to multi-disciplinary projects or ones with lots of moving pieces.

Of all design software I’ve used (in 30+ years) , none have caused so many VERY late nights as LayOut.

[Nathank9000]

I need vector because I have to add very precise dimensions, and I can’t SEE what I’m aiming at. Even with viewport quality set to High.

Vector:

Raster: have to hunt for the right point, and even then I’m not sure it’s correct:

[Nathank9000]

The issue is that often, I start adding dimensions and notes in Layout and realize that something is not aligned, or only see an issue in the section + looking at it zoomed in. Or sometimes last-minute design decisions change. And I have to update the SKP.

And then what, export it, import it again, resize it, etc?

Kind of defeats the entire point of Layout then. If I have to export things to DWG and then manually annotate them, I might as well do it in CorelDraw.

Why can’t Layout just update it without taking literally minutes?

[Nathank9000]

Several reasons:

1.) Often this is required for 3rd-party fabricators or builder professionals. Especially with custom millwork & furniture.

2.) Much more precise dimensions & annotations - lines “lock in” to vector, they’re much less exact in raster.

3.) If we have to print a page for the jobsite or fab shop, in Arch D (or larger), it’s either vector or looks like a blurred photo from the 1980s.

[Nathank9000]

What do I consider “high-poly”? A couch with 700,000 polygons. A plant with 2.2 million polygons. A spoon (wtf) with 46,00 polygons.

What I don’t consider “high-poly”? An entire custom kitchen, with appliances, with electrical items, with custom millwork - just over 1M polygons.

[Cyentruk]

@AK_SAM

I also struggle greatly with LayOut, though Vector rendering is just one of the performance gripes. I find it’s trying to sync when I don’t want it to, it takes forever to update a reference, (even if one tiny thing has changed), autosave, etc; from what I can tell, it seems to process a huge amount of unnecessary things, and doens’t make use of background CPU processing. Text is also a massive issue, even with a modest amount of multi-line text or a few dozen dimensions, my powerful laptop just can’t handle it.

You shoud change the way you open LayOut and SketchUp if you don’t want SketchUp auto sync with LayOut while working.

Let open SketchUp and LayOut from their’s shortcuts, then open *.skp file and *.layout file separately from their own open menu. Do not open Sketchup file with command “Open with SketchUp” the context menu of LayOut, or “Send to LayOut” from menu File of SketchUp.

[renton555]

I think that’s kind of debatable. I do custom millwork for commercial and this is the heaviest model I’ve ever done, representing about $200k of millwork and a room about 60’W x 60’D x 20’H… We model every cabinet part, every drawer slide, every hinge and pull. I used skimp to reduce the poly count of the hardware we use regularly. For appliances normally I pull them in and either skimp them or only show their outline/footprint as it concerns the adjacent millwork. I understand if you’re rendering stuff you’ll want something closer resembling the real appliance and a higher level of detail on the context.