Problems closing faces

I have been trying to clean up this model with the tips I’ve learned here, but I am having problems with these floor plates. I have tried to assign the edges and faces to the correct layers, but weird things disappear and I can’t figure it out. I guess I just have to rebuild from scratch unless it can be cleaned up.

floors.skp (3.7 MB)

Your layers are screwed up, it only takes a second to see it by triple clicking the geometry.
Wrong%20layers
How about you forget about using layers until you have built the model, then assign layer tags to relevant groups.

All edges and faces should remain associated with Layer 0 and only groups and components should be given a layer tag.

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No need to rebuild from scratch!
Example of correctiong layers assignment:
_ double click on floor group B1 to open it
_ tripple click on its top face to select all basic geometry (or use [Ctrl] plus [A] to select all) in the current drawing context
_ in ‘Entity Info’ change (by selecting) layer assignment ‘Multiple’ to Layer0

Do so for each group’s basic entities by entering these groups one by one.

Also name your groups and components instead of leaving all their names ‘group’ !

Note the difference between tripple clciking to select all connected basic geometry and using [Ctrl] plus [A] to select all The latter also would select nested groups and components and guides, text and dimensions etc. You may not want that in a certain situation.

Thanks!
I did make all geometry on Layer0, then made groups or components for the most part (probably not everywhere). I would then see different entities appear on other layers, which I didn’t consciously place them there. I would then reassign these edges and faces to the current layer, but they would still appear.

From your description here and from prior threads you’ve started, it sounds to me like you need to change your workflow. This thing with getting geometry on the wrong layers seems to be an ongoing problem for you. Try working in the following manner:

Draw one thing. Maybe the walls. Do not model anything else yet. Select all of the wall geometry (triple click on the wall with the Select tool.) and make a group. Move on to the next thing and model it. Select all of its geometry and make a group. Continue working that way until you have the model built. Do not apply textures or materials to anything yet. Make sure face orientations are correct and that you aren’t missing any geometry in your selections when making groups.

Next create a scene that shows your entire model.

Now create the layers you need for the various objects. Turn off their visibility as you make them.

Now select a group and change its layer in Entity Info. Do not open the groups for editing at this stage. Only change layer associations for the groups. As you do this, the groups will disappear. When all of the groups have been assigned other layers, the model space should be blank. Go to the View menu and turn on Hidden Geometry and do a Command-A selection and see if Entity Info shows anything selected. It shouldn’t if you got all of the geometry into groups.

After you are sure your model is clean, click on the scene tab and the layers will all be turned on and your model should be visible. If you want to add materials to your groups, open them for editing and apply the materials.

Under normal circumstances there should be little or no reason to explode groups. You can open them to make edits if needed. If you do need to explode groups, though, the first step after exploding should be to go to Entity Info and immediately select Layer 0.

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Thanks. When you state ‘multiple’ I presume that means the several layers that may be present in the drop down menu. I will definitely name groups from now on, makes sense, I did not think to do that. And is it normal to have components nested into groups? I presume this is fine. It appears that edges sometimes are missing as they are on other layers. Again this was not my intention, just when constructing the model, when I started with a rectangular floor plate, then extruded the walls, certain entities ended up on different layers.

Yes you are absolutely correct regarding workflow, it is slowly getting better, but much more to learn. I started this model over a month ago and some of my bad habits are still imbedded.

I hear you about trying to complete one portion, but as I develop the model I constantly adjust other parts, so all aspects are being tuned and dimensions adjusted as I go along. Since I am closer to completion I am cleaning up sections, ie: for example the cylindrical volume, mezzanine, railings, etc. I have remodelled using 120 segments in the circle to tighten up the geometry. I am dreading redoing the stair mind you.

I have gone through some of the tutorials, wish I had come across one that would summarize a proper workflow approach point by point. Question now is can I salvage these floor plates or rebuild them. As per g.h.'s reply above, I will attempt to rebuild them. I realize they are not very complicated, but the points where they interesect with the cylinder and wall positions / dimensions would have to be re-established.

And finally the materiality helps me visualize the spaces. I imagine to a seasoned modeller it appears to be jumping the gun somewhat, so I will dial that back. I also thought scenes were more for animation.

One other thing, where you suggest to draw all the walls first, my process was to establish the floor plate then draw the perimeter walls and extrude up. I played with several different sizes of orthogonal floor plates and the circular space trying to find the adequate size, giving consideration to a proposed lot space, cost of building, space desired, etc. Therefore I had to start with the floor plates, plus it is my intuitive way to design. Which may be the crux of the problem, I am using SU to design with as opposed to modelling an existing design.

The workflow I describe doesn’t prevent you from making modifications and adjustment as you go along. You just open the group or component for editing and make the change.

With a good workflow there should be little cleanup required.

120 segments is most likel excessive for railings and other small details.

Most like as has been mentioned by others, you can salvage what you’ve modeled. Certainly getting the geometry back to Layer 0 is possible. You need to consider what makes sense. Will you invest more time and energy into repairing the model than you would if you start over redrawing those parts?

One problem that might have been brought up with your current workflow is if you are creating large parts of the model and then splitting it into individual groups is that you can be putting an edge that is required for one face into a neighboring group. If you turn off the layer for that group, the edge won’t show in the remaining part of the model. If you create one part, group the geometry and then draw the neighboring part and group it separately, you won’t have that issue.

This also isn’t really a reason to not model individual parts and group them as you go. I frequently design things from nothing in SketchUp and use the method of work I describe. I use components instead of groups but the process is otherwise the same.

One of the basic fundamentals that you are falling foul of…
Layers do not separate geometry! only groups and components do that.
Layers are only used for making parts of the model invisible/visible.

Okay, so if I understand correctly, if I make say a floor, group it, then make a wall that sits on that floor and shares the same exterior edge, then group that, can the two edges then exist together when all layers are turned on. I realize you said layers do not separate geometry, but in the past when I have tried to add what I thought was a missing edge, a note would pop up alerting me to the existence of that edge on another layer. It is very useful for me to view just the walls, or just the floors as it informs design decisions, therefore it is nice to have them complete with all edges, faces and eventually material.

’Multiple’ is the information ‘Entity Info’ gives me when I select all basic entities in a floor group. Meaning that one entity may be “on” layer A, the next may be “on” layer B etc. So not just one layer for all selected entities. But you can then assign Layer0 in one go to the whole selection, thus replacing whatever layer was assigned to each of the selected entities.

Hmm, I do not see ‘multiple’ on the menu. Would that have anything to do with the version of SU I am using?

Yes. The two edges will appear as one. Here’s an example. There are many places where edges are coincident in this model. The cylinder, the gasket, and the head are instances of that.

As you can see, when they are separated from each other, those edges are shown.

Layers do not separate geometry and prevent them from interacting with each other. The sorts of problems you are having comes from not grouping geometry correctly and having geometry on multiple layers within the group.

The blank layer field indicates there selection has more than one layer assignment.

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on a mac the input field is blank unless all selected are on a single layer…

john

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Could very well be the case. Maybe you see a question mark ? instead in the desktop version. I’m referring to what the web version tells me in ‘Entity Info’.

Okay, it’s all sinking in now, thanks again for the detailed explanations. I will report back once I’ve cleaned it up. I must say, the model is much sharper when things are cleaned up. BTW, when in the workflow is best to add materials? Also I find I sometimes have to delineate an area to contain the materials (ie. a tile wall in a shower) so it does not cover the whole face. Is that the proper approach or is there a better way.

Note, I drew a cross section with graphite on mylar of a V-8 engine when I was in arch. school.

I don’t seem to get that. Here is a screen shot of what I see.

Generally I find it best to save adding materials until the model geometry is at least nearly complete. Displaying materials can cause cause a hit in performance because it makes your graphics card work harder. Materials can also mask reversed faces and other problems.

Probably best to think of the wall as an entire entity as it would be without the tile. If you want to add a tile texture to part of the wall as around a shower, edit the group and draw edges on the face of the wall that define the limits of the tile. Then apply the tile material inside that. If you don’t want to see the black lines at the edge of the tile, you can hide those edges. Hold Shift while running over the edges with the Eraser tool. I do this sort of thing frequently for furniture models for example when I want to show a table top is made of several pieces of wood, I draw the top as a single component and add lines to split the face. You can see that here:

Open the group for editing and select ALL of the geometry. What do you see for Layer in Entity Info?

Oh cool, very nice btw. I like seeing the detail of the fasteners on the legs also. I was a carpenter and built some cabinetry also.

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