The Best SU+LO Automation for Construction Drawings?

SketchUp Pro
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The thing is all of us working with Sketchup and somehow showing, using and/or delivering a model which we base all our information on, are already using BIM.

However, as we are using Sketchup and not Revit or Archicad we are regarded as not complying with standards. That’s why the IFC format is so important and that’s why it seems there are some news that Autodesk is trying to shift away from it, again after not being able to impose revit format as standard (which they were able with DWG).

Having said that, there are promittent costumers that adress us expecting us to deliver our projects in Revit, or in Archicad, though they prefer the first.

So, of course I agree with all of you on the assertion that BIM is a workflow. However, for that workflow to result in something truly useful, Sketchup still has to be able to allow for a better workflow on:

  • 2D drawings at any scale, which become exceptionally difficult for construction documentation, versus other BIM packages
  • Bills of materials and quantity reports, which are of utmost importance and still require too much hassle to setup in Sketchup
  • Much more swift IFC classification
  • That this classification should help us on the 2D drawing creation, labelling and dimensioning as well as on the reporting aspect of the model.
  • On the IFC import and export methods and their roundtripping to other packages
  • That all we setup on Sketchup can directly used in Trimble Connect so it truly becomes completely synced with Sketchup on stuff like, tags, scenes, sections, styles and hiearchy and Sketchup+Trimble Connect can really become Manager and Model Editor in at least such a streamlined fashion as Trimble and Tekla work.
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  • Yes, I use LO for Construction Documents, dimensioning and annotation of Layout viewports.

  • 2D drawings of Construction Details are done with an old 2006 Autocad license, and sometimes as 2D inside sketchup. I use Solibri as my ifc viewer, because there’s no TC desktop client for Mac

  • I dont get to choose the ecosystem for sharing models. It differs with each client/ project. It’s mostly local cloud solutions, sometimes I-Binder.

That means there’s no point putting other consultants files into Trimble Connect. I keep them in a local folder.

Getting ifc files into sketchup I just use TC as a Ifc-to-TrimBim converter to make proper ifc imports with tags. It seems to me the direction Trimble chooses for x-refs/links is to make us use TC more, but thats not a solution I can use effectively, as I need to pull drawings out of different web locations, so a local folder makes much more sense.

Idealy I would want a links palette thats stores the path for each x-ref, and stores import options for each x-ref, so that I can manage the frequent updates to external drawings effectively.

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You refer wrongly. Call it automation not BIM. The main prblem is that if someone search here for BIM and read about CAD he will end up convincing himself that he has to start or continue using REVIT/ARCHICAD because SketchUp is not good for working in BIM, and that IS NOT TRUE.

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I guess you know but you can use Trimble Connect Sync on Mac and always have your local directory synchronized with the files, I do it like this from Mac. The rest of the work I do from the web environment, it does not differ much from the Windows desktop application, in fact on the computer I have with Windows I do not have it installed either.

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Ever since I watched SketchUp Talk: BIM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFAPwFUuUkk&t=295s&ab_channel=SketchUp, I understand that the term: BIM is very vague and also includes the automation of the document execution process.
Aaron: Some people will say I need BIM, meaning they need a 3D model because they are drawing everything on paper. For another guy, a spreadsheet might be his BIM because he wants a list of parts for HVAC
If you think this topic name: The Best SU BIM? leads in the wrong direction, I am ready to change it to: The Best SU+LO Automation for Construction Drawings. Thank you!

(I have already modified it, I apologize to everyone if I misinterpreted the term: BIM)

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Imho, you shouldn’t have changed the name of the thread…

It was an useful discussion about BIM, it also touched on the topic of 2D drawing generation. It makes more sense to discuss how to leverage Sketchup as BIM and then how to extract data from a BIM model, like 2D drawings or reports and schedules, than to only focus on the 2D geomtetry as if it were a pumped up CAD.

The beauty of BIM is that it allows for all things to sync and have a common source of truth aka 3D model with incorporated Info.

Some examples on how 2D drawing generation benefits from BIM:

  • On permits you can get data from IfcSpaces, which is mandatory, like areas and dimensions and names of rooms. Discussing how that is implemented and how it can then be carried into Sketchup, makes sense.
  • You can get slopes, heights and other geometric properties from existing objects if they are correctly retrievable from model or info in the model, like on Dynamic Components.
  • You can get labels from component descritptions, or materials applied to objects.
  • You should be able to get hatches from wall compositions.
  • Schedules, lists and objects properties based on model can also be part of drawings
  • Names of viewports based on it’s scenes, sections, scale, style and eventually Page indexes
  • Details from specific parts of models and how to represent them with labels and hatches
  • And so on…

So, from my point of view, discussing how to best approach 2D drawings without talking about the full info they should address is less interesting. Taking full advantage of what we can do with a 3D model that can carry more info than 2D geometry, makes sense both to what you want to achieve in a short term, as well as how you can leverage your possibilities in the future.

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Indeed a fascinating discussion that gives us a snapshot of where we are in the building industry, on the edge of generalized & democratized BIM, but not quite there yet… So one hopes that the Trimble folks will gave picked up this thread & realized that not only do they need to deliver on the ifc based exchange aspects of Su, but a serious overhaul of Lo is wished for as we aren’t fully dropping CAD any day soon…
Fingers crossed !

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Unfortunately, this discussion has become too confusing. I thought the participants would focus more on automating construction documents and propose a solution better than 5D+, or at least describe their automation method.
I understand everything is somehow connected, and it’s okay to talk a little about parametric, automation, TC-IFC sharing. However, everyone started with their frustrations.
To summarize this thread:
The term BIM is much broader, but from this discussion, I would divide it into 3 categories:

  • Automation of construction drawings (for automation I would use 5d+, Condoc extensions)
  • Parametric modeling (I would use PlusSpec, Profile Builder extension)
  • IFC, Trimble Connect sharing (@paddyclown, @rtches, @Odd_Haakon_Byberg method )
    Sorry if I missed anyone.

PS1. In general, the term BIM should not have been emphasized. It causes too much confusion. If you want to discuss it, take it separately: CD automation, parametric design, IFC sharing, TC collaboration, analysis, operation, maintenance, etc.
PS2. No one has yet told me what good solution they use for automating Construction Drawings.
PS3. As 1 wise man said: https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx2ERgQqtdidpkjQ5-bsHyw3dde6CtArOx?si=6UxQByTyAXUaMP2r

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I terms of automating construction drawings I think good templates goes a long way. One can have SU templates with all the tags, tag folders, styles, scenes already set up. The time it takes to produce a Layout document copying the viewports and setting them up for scenes is something I just accept, as this is not my main time-thief.

I dont use the condoc/ 5d+ things, as (for me) learning them probably takes more time than setting ut the document manually.

Updating x-refs / external ifc´s is my main time thief. Also distributing updated drawings is time-consuming, new dwg,s and ifc´s out there every week, and producing a set of separate pdf´s for each Layout page named correctly for each revision is very time-consuming.

Just in Layout having the option to print all the pages into individual pdf´s all at once named as the page name would be a very real production time Improvement.

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Yup, fully agree with all that you say - good template files speed things up a great deal…

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Thanks for the more concise feedback, as it helps me respond to points instead of guessing.

Mate, I’m an Australian designer and builder that started on the tools; diplomacy is not my strong point, yet when you get used to the way I respond, you may just find it refreshing.

Nobody does, however, to be able to afford to develop technology that continues to progress with technology, subscriptions are essential. We have full-time developers who have worked on PlusSpec for 15+ years in Australia.

I would use PlusSpec after mass-modelling the initial design in Sketchup. Your building represents 0.001% of projects built globally, so yes, we are stronger in 99% of projects. In saying this, PlusSpec offers a solution for this type of project in conjunction with Sketchup.

Max, was your design ever built? Your video is private, so I can not watch it. Here is a building that was designed, detailed, quantified and built inside Sketchup using PlusSpec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr0eMerFWMA&t=18s

This is good feedback. I’d be interested to see some examples, in saying that PlusSpec automates a lot of this, yet maybe not in the way others prefer; if anyone gets a chance, can you add a screenshot or two? This old beta video shows how to export a CSV window schedule and annotate inside Sketchup & layout. The technology has improved significantly since this time. https://youtu.be/NIun6Q4skrE?si=v8eX9ZpWIxQ2MXkZ

This video created 7 years ago shows live section hatching in an early version of PlusSpec, it has come a long way since then https://youtu.be/N_25WGQZGQI?si=LI1lMqpu8MrCHIvv&t=77

IFC is the best way to export geometry as it retains information. PlusSpec automatically attributes IFC classifications that are retained when utilising the geometry in other software; this has been in place for 8 years.

Max, it is important to understand why PlusSpec was built inside Sketchup instead of Revit. Sketchup is an amazing tool for drawing anything and everything, yet organising and amending such geometry alongside critical information requires significant Sketchup experience. Most of our clients are not Sketchup users and don’t have 6 months to learn.

Max, we have tools to help you handle your workflow and niche; they are subscriptions and come at a cost that delivers value. So, to answer your question: “How would I use PlusSpec to draw your project?” Draw what you please in Sketchup and use the custom BIM and estimation tools to attribute and organise the model. I would use the beam & slab tool to create the engineering and structure of such, which would be done faster and more accurately. Max, if you truly want to learn more about BIM in PlusSpec please send me your model. When I get a moment I will make a tutorial video on how I would approach it.

For Virtual Design and Construction(VDC) & BIM to be of any use, it needs to work for the majority. In your case, seeing you do the minority of work, therefore it makes sense that we developed PlusSpec to work for the majority of our industry.
In reference to BIM & VDC I think this metaphor says it best:To raise the ceiling efficiently, it helps to raise the floor.

I hope that helps.

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I disagree. We’re in a public place. If we were closer friends we’d have a different conversation, like:

You: Hi, I'm Australian.
Me: I don't care. Hi, I live in the poorest country in Europe. 
You: Do you like paying a subscription?
And we were both laughing

But here are people of many nationalities, each with their sensitivity, life struggles, level of English…

This post aimed to find the best way to automate construction documents (each in their way). But we all talked about everything and nothing on the topic. All I realized is that one person’s BIM is more BIM than someone else’s BIM.

I imagined it would be more beneficial if the format were as:
I made a description of what I like, dislike, and what I would like to change to 5D+ (the ecosystem I’m using right now). And I showed my project with 5D+ which I’m working on (read the 1st post). (Speaking of 5D+ I’ll do another presentation after the project is finished, too many changes have been made since the post was created)
And then I expected someone else to do the same. He would present his project in (Plusspec for example as I did with 5D+)and write advantages, disadvantages, and what he would change. And everyone would ask: But how do you put elevation labels on facades? How did you put marks on windows in sections and floor layers? Is it possible to change the font? +1001 other questions.

E.g.: You presented a tutorial with the hatch section. (I honestly didn’t know it was possible in PlusSpec to make hatches), but it raised a lot of other questions: can I scale hatches depending on the plan scale, can I change the line thickness, can I refresh all sections in the model at once… questions, lots of them. I can’t risk starting a project until I’m sure I already have answers to most of the questions. Based on all this information, I would conclude: is this extension better than the other?

Each extension meets everyone’s needs differently. We all have different visions, requirements, and capabilities. One solution may be good for you, while another may not.

I have been subscribed to your channel on YT for many years (other extensions too), and I’m kinda being current with what the extension offers,(but only on the surface I must agree). At the moment I don’t see how Plusspec can fulfill my needs for the following reasons :

  • I don’t work with Framework houses, that’s why I rarely need parametric. (And I have reasons to still be skeptical about making a parametric house)
  • I have very strict requirements on marks, labels, and grids (I can’t use Australian, or American ones)
  • The 5D AutoInfo report from what I see is more developed than in Plusspec
  • I need .dwg export, not out of preference but because of circumstances. I have repeated in this thread 100 times and I will repeat it, I would throw .dwg in the trash and only use IFC whenever possible.

I didn’t mention about subscriptions. You assumed that was the reason I wouldn’t use PlusSpec :slight_smile:

For me, that’s impossible. There are always changes, even a last-minute change.

And I really hope you’re right.

I started SU+LO in ≈ 2020 I’ve been working on 3 different small architecture offices- 45% abandoned projects, 45% typical, cheap, for the money, and 10%- competitions+ 1-3 that I hope to turn into reality.
The one from the video below is at the verification stage, but the geopolitical situation in Eastern Europe has its impact. So the answer is more no, than yes. I’m working on it now ( public procurements) SketchUp. Felt awkward to answer this question.

Sorry about that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvRveiEsTbE&ab_channel=MaximB

Is it possible to do this kind of Section marking in plans?:

:arrow_down:

I have no complaints, when the extension meets my needs I will come uninvited and buy it. As long as I don’t do framework houses or I am asked to export to Autocad on layers, I don’t see any point in using it

Working on this every day, which is what I wish for you too :heart:

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Hi again @bmaxim

I’m on the same page as you are.

I’m aslo exploring 5D+ as it seems the best approach for what I have to do.

I use toCad for exporting DWG as I can’t get what people need from Layout.

For permits the format I must use is DWF and, now PDF are also allowed, though now some municipalities ask for both and also paper… a bureaucratic nightmare.

So, I still produce drawings and that is my main output.

I cannot handle templates as all my projects have different requirements.

I don’t need parametrics for modeling at all. BIM is not about that anyway, it’s about info on models. However most BIM packages feature two kind of parametrics one of which we should have in Sketchup and Layout:

  1. Parametric modeling - For what I see, this is more trouble than direct modeling. I don’t care for it anymore.
  2. Parametric connection between documents - That is what this post is all about. This is definetely needed in Sketchup workflow.

So, which documents should we be talking about:
1. General Drawings - like general plans, elevations and sections, up to 1:50 and even 1:25.
2. Larger scale drawings - where parts of general drawings are zoomed in and call out labels show up in general plans stating where we are zooming in. This can be done manually, but it’s not dynamic at all. This should be parametrically connected between models/layout. 5D+ is trying to solve that with masks and scenes, but it’s really not that easy. Also each call out creates a new scene, geometry and layers and our models get complex. We can leverage xrefs and SU/LO templates but it’s not automatic. Far from it.
3. Graphical Schedules - This means lots of drawings of windows, doors, cabinets, kitchen islands and so on. Creating views of each model, eventually drawing section details for each of these and also how they connect with other building elements as walls, slabs, roof, floor, exterior ground is a nightmare. Solving that is a must. 5D+ helps us label them, but doesn’t help with setting all of these in Layout. Templates could also be used to solve this and leveraging xrefs, but it’s still a lot of work.
4. Detail Drawings - Exterior wall details and their connection to roof, ground waterproofing, insulation, structure and whatnot. These are best represented as simple 2D components representing sections, but filling the model with even more sections and more clunk is a mess.

Then, there is the fact that each of this kind of drawing needs to have a page, be labeled in plans and sections and if something changes we have to manually update the changes and labels and their location. Really difficult at some point.

Reports. Bills of Materials, Quantity takeoffs,

Naming all objects, describing them, naming all materials consistently, labeling details with those materials, making reports on them, estimating costs, having a different method for each type of object, or buidling element. Honestly there is no easy way to do this as modelling in Sketchup doesn’t follow a single rule and there’s a huge disconnection between models, materials and all it’s info.

If we have to do this, this should be used in both drawings and reports.

Pages, Indexes, relationship between drawings and reports
Impossible to track how it should be and how it is. I challenge you to create a section, label it and state the page where it is, consistently, in all Layout pages. Impossible!

BIM discussion, not 2D drawing discussion.

I see no other way of streamlining what you want, or what I also want, without having something that connects everything together. That something is the skecthup model, that can be xrefed, reported on, showed in layout viewports, labeled and dimensioned in layout. This model has info and carries info.

The only way to interconnect this info is to have Layout write to the model too. It should write in which viewports, at what scales, in what pages, from which files the model is being represented in, and send that info to the model to be used if needed.

Hence BIM makes sense. Models carry info that can/should be used in a lot of different places, and that should be used to automate processes and create parametrics of drawing generation and interconnection with reports.

This should be addressed. It isn’t possible to address with plugins exclusively unless there is a whole system put in place. Maybe Plusspec solved it, but I don’t believe they went that deep.

Is it even possible that this will happen someday?

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I am beginning to love this thread. Idea. Our company is part of an elite exchange network of selected similar companies. We visit each other twice a year (rotating hosts) and look deep into our processes. It works as you described - the host shows deep insights into “how they do it”. They go through the steps. Everybody can ask questions. Everybody can take notes. You learn what you feel worthwhile learning for your company and go your merry way. Half a year later this repeats at a different host.

How about we all here interested form a group that meets over something like Zoom or Google Meets to dig around each others processes Sketchup->Layout. Specialized for people that have BIMish tendencies. Somebody shows how they work with 5D+, next session somebody shares their PlusSpec process, etc. It’s more efficient than just a Forum-Thread (which also can go into any random direction any time) and you can interrupt with questions, etc. because it’s live. I’d be up for it and could organize the first couple of rounds. Anybody else interested?

Disclaimer - we do A LOT of Sketchup to Layout, use lot’s of plugins but no predefined 5D+ type plugin-reliant process. I believe you can learn a lot from us, because we try to stay as close to Sketchup-Core-Processes as possible.

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Yessss. You pointed out the core of concept 5D+ based on. Working with NO PREDEFINED modeling process. Modeling first, define/classify objects at anytime.

No need fixed template files, that required update and maintain continously.

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Anyway, I love this idea. I’m in.

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@Cyentruk can you point me to the most basic 5D+ tutorial that shows this workflow you describe “Modeling first, define/classify objects at anytime.” thank you!

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Hi, you can watch 2 short videos:

Once objects has been classified (by tags actually and working with any tags system). There many things we can do with:
Such as:

Even if you do not classfy objects, the extension still help you labeling and creating construction grids by selection objects directly.

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I’m not a big fan of spending hours watching videos, but let the majority decide.
Imo, it would be much more interesting if each user (unrelated to the developer) told us exactly, what he likes/dislikes about the extension he uses. Additionally, if a SU+LO model with the extension applied was also shared, it would be even better. Then, we could weigh the options and decide what is best for us.
But the best thing would be a direct video meeting between the developers face to face, lol, I was joking, no sacrifices please :grimacing:

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That’s what I mean - direct meeting - no pretaped videos. We don’t need a majority for this either. 5 freaks who happen to care about this and want to learn from each other would suffice… :slight_smile: I’m counting 3 so far.

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