Layout - Updating SU model to 2017 throws out views in Layout

LayOut
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1

Hi,

I’ve just installed 2017 Pro. I have opened a layout file to test it and have found that when I save the SU file and update it in LO most of my modified views change. Any view that’s been modified (where it says ‘(modified)’ before the name in the scene dialogue) and just seems to shift to a new position throwing all my dims and annotations out. I’ve tried updated to an oversaved copy of the original file and have also tried re-linking to a copy of the original file saved as SU 2017 but get the same result with both.

Having to rework my drawings to account for this view shift will be a serious pain - I often have to go back and revisit and amend old drawings from a couple of years ago.

I have created some screen grabs of the various stages involved in the issue occurring which I’ll try to upload in a minute.

Is this a bug or is there any way around it?

Thanks

Sam

1 Like
2

I’ve attached some views to show what I mean. The one called ‘On Open’ shows the layout file (created in 2016) opened in LO 2017; all the dims are ok and the views are correct. The file called ‘After Save and Update’ shows how most of the views have changed and all the dims have been thrown off.

Image of 2016 file opened in LO 2017 without updating - all is good…

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Image of LO file in 2017 with corresponding SU file saved as 2017 and updated in LO showing that views have all reset, scales have changed and dims have shot off the page…

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Image of whole layout view zoomed out showing that dims are all over the place - right off the LO artboard!

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More to follow that show a sequence to create the error in a new 2017 file…

3

Ive done some further testing and when the file has been updated (from a modified view) it throws out the scale, changes it to perspective, moves it to a different location within the view window and consequently throws all the dims off into strange positions. If I select the viewport, change it to what I want (ortho, scale 1:10, right hand view) and then go to update the view (in scene pallet drop down) it throws everything out again despite the original view in SU having no camera associated with it.

I’ve tried adding my file to a new document and playing around with it and am having the same problems. I’ve uploaded a sequence of images to show what I mean. My SU window is shown on the left in the yellow box and the LO window on the right.

Image 01
Original setup of SU with one scene called Scene 1 that has no camera associated with it. LO files with SU model set out in LO and views manually changed to show plan, front and right.

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Image 02
Small change to SU file, elevation styles changed in LO and then context menu view update in LO to show red top.

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Image 03
In SU yellow disc is added and shadows altered. In LO context menu update shows that shadows are not the same as SU because view is (modified) Scene 1 in scene pallet.

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Image 04
All views selected and changed to Scene 1 (in Scenes pallet dropdown) and now they are all perspective, all looking at the origin and all at a random super zoomed scale - this never happened before.

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I draw lots of production details and generally set one view to use for my front, plan and side views that doesn’t have a camera associated with it in SU - I find this is a lot quicker and less confusing than having to set views for all the elevations in SU and allows for much quicker updates but this doesn’t appear to work in LO 2017!

Can anyone shed any light on why this is happening now as its a major upheaval in the way I’ll have to draw things up. Having to have a scene in SU for every view and elevation is a nightmare and makes organising a file really difficult. If I update a associate a camera with each elevation and then update a scene on a different PC where the screen is a different aspect ratio or the pallets are laid out differently (even if the pallet block is set wider or narrower) then the views all get thrown out if the view is updated from (modified) Scene X to just Scene X!

Any help very much appreciated…

4

Im going to have to hold off on using 2017 until I know how to resolve this as it affects every drawing Ive done for the last 4 or so years. Really don’t want to change my workflow or have to go back and update all my old drawings!

Link here to a topic I have also started on Sketchucation in case anything useful comes up on there.

Link to topic on Sketchucation

5

I think the main problem you are having is due to the fact that you are creating modified scenes in LO. You should avoid doing that.

How about sharing the LO file so we can have a look at that?

6

Sure - where should I share it? Just upload here as a .zip?

7

You can upload it here as a ZIP or, if it’s not too large, just upload the LayOut file. If you don’t want to share it publicly, send it in a private message.

8

Hi Dave,
Files uploaded.

TEST1 - 1 scene 4 views.layout (959.6 KB)
TEST2 - 4 scenes 4 views.layout (981.6 KB)

I’ve created two files one using the method that I’ve always used where 1 scene is setup for several views (1 scene 4 view) and another which has several scenes, 4 of which are referenced in LO (4 scenes 4 views). This second file is the way I used to set things up when I first started working with SU and LO about 9 years ago and I found it a very time consuming and problematic way to work which is why up until 2 hours ago I would only look at saving a handfull of scenes and would control them all in LO.

(Before I go on I’d like to point out that I’m not having a rant in any of what I’m saying below - I’m just concerned this represents a fairly major overhaul in how I model / draw and use SU and LO. I really appreciate the help that is handed out for free on these forums and I know that posts can sometimes sound like they are more pointed than they would be as a conversation… NO RANT INTENDED!)

If I have go back to the method of working where I need a scene for every single view that I’ll be using in SU it represents a fairly major step back in terms of setup (loads more scenes to name and their relevant settings to remember) not to mention a huge amount of work to do in re-configuring all my files to date - 8 or so years worth of files where every view will be thrown out when I amend and re-save in SU and update in LO!! Yikes!

I’ve never heard that you shouldn’t create modified scenes in LO. Are you saying there should be a scene in SU for every view you want in LO? If so thats a LOT of scenes to name and remember - and a lot of scenes for someone else to mix up or mess up when they edit a shared file.

If I shouldn’t create modified scenes in LO then Im not sure what the point of the modification options in the LO scenes panel are if they will just be overwritten once you update the scene? Having a couple of scenes in SU (say 1 in shaded, 1 in hidden line and one with a section cut) and controlling them in LO is sooooo much easier than having to create, name and organise all the scenes in SU.

I’ve been using SU for a long time and have used this method pretty much since I started without any issues. I have found it way more efficient in terms of setup time, amends and file sharing (having others edit on different machines and different operating systems).

If you have to create a scene for every view you have to name every view otherwise its impossible to find them. If all the views have a specific camera and someone updates it on a different monitor or different zoom then the views all get thrown out in the respective LO files (this is whats happened in my file TEST2 - the right scene has accidentally been saved with a different zoom and consequently its now at a different scale and the dims are off). This is the whole reason I started creating scenes with no camera - I have regularly had 5 or 6 people working on the same file and in the early days whenever people updated the SU scenes and someone else (with a different monitor setup or pallet layout) then had to go back and edit the LO file all the views would change, throwing the dims off and changing all the views - it just wastes loads of time and caused me to have to do loads of repeat tidy up work.

I hope there is an easy way to resolve this - Im really confused as to why its changed as it was actually a really fast and efficient way to model and then create quick but accurate and endlessly update-able drawings across multiple machines and platforms.

Thanks again

9

You are probably right. And IMHO the basic problem is “why does LayOut let you do that?”. A considerable majority of problems with LayOut on this forum is due to the fact that changes done to views in LO do not stick if the linked model is changed. Either users ought to be forced to create finished scenes in SketchUp, or, as I have always suggested, all aspects of views ought to be controllable and savable from LayOut.

Anssi

1 Like
10

Yes. a SketchUp scene for each LayOut viewport. I make an exception to that rule if I can use a portion of an existing screen for a detail view but the scenes are absolutely never modified.

Perhaps you need to do more training so problems aren’t created.

It would create fewer problems if some of those modification options weren’t there. The thing is, if you modify the scene in LO, you disconnect the viewport from the original scene in SketchUp. If you then make scene-specific changes in SketchUp, those changes will not show in the modified viewport.

I’ve been using LayOut since it first came out and helping others learn how to use it. The vast majority of problems others report with the behavior of viewports are the result of creating modified scenes. I never create modified scenes and I never have any problems like you are describing.

I’ll look at your LO files when I get home from work.

I agree with you. Several of us have asked for at least an option to disable the ability to make the viewports show with modified scenes.

11

Thanks for coming back to me Dave.

The way I’ve worked up to now may not be the correct way but I can say from trying both ways that my ‘incorrect’ way is extremely fast (much faster than having to name every scene with all its associated attributes - shadows on / off, render style, perspective / ortho, view position and keep referring between su and lo to make sure all the required scenes have been set up etc etc…) and keeps drafting, scene and file managenent very efficient. Being able control scenes from lo and su has in the past been a HUGE strength in the su software and is similar to the way that other software works - vectorworks, Solidworks and inventor are just a few that I’ve tried that work in this way (make the model in the model space and control it in the model space and the drafting space). Even autocad LT allows you to override the model viewport in the drafting layout without issue.

I know this may not be the way SU is supposed to be used but until today i have had no issues with this single scene / multiple view workflow, if anything it’s made modelling, drafting and managing files much faster and less problematic.

If you try setting up a file in SU and LO 2016 (where this is still possible) with one scene for multiple views I’m sure you’ll see how much faster and easier to manage it is - you can use one SU file with one scene for a presentation document with textures, shadows etc - and for a draft detail and for a full blown working drawing. With the method people now have to use they would either have to set up a file for each fox type or a set of scenes specific to each document. And you then run the risk that if you or AN other opens your su file and over saves a scene with a different zoom or the same camera settings but in a different size workspace that the corresponding view in lo will be thrown out.

Anssi

“…all aspects of views ought to be controllable and savable from LayOut”

YES! I couldn’t agree more - it would make lo so much easier to use. In fact up until I tried the new version today I would say that the level of control afforded in lo to adjust scenes was pretty ■■■■ good - more would have been better but it was easy to get good results. As I said I’ve had no problems with this method until today.

I know there are other considerations and factors at play here but ultimately flexibility is the key for end users. Not being able to control scenes in lo in the future would strip a very hand feature set out the drafting side of the software and make it less capable / intuitive / easy to use that others that are on the market.

Thanks
Sam

12

Until you have to stop and fix problems because of the your way. :slight_smile:

13

But that’s what I’m saying - it’s not been a problem in the past! What should I have had to fix, and what problems should I have had?

The new release means can’t work in the way that I could - I have to work in a much more brain taxing and less efficient way. :disappointed_relieved:

If this is the future then I think Trimble have missed a trick because other modelling / drafting software makes the link between the model and the 2d page much easier to control :thinking:

14

Nothing has changed in the latest release as far as modified scenes go.

15

Something has changed because the issues I’m experiencing are brand new and ONLY occur in 2017. I’ve gone back to 2016 and these issues are not present - and never have been. I’ve set my files up like this for a long time *. In 2016 the when you update a (modified) viewport that refs a scene with no camera the view (front, top, perspective, ortho) is maintained but in 2017 all views switch to perspective and zoom right in on the origine. It is different and has changed (for the worse) in some way. Try it out in 2016 and then do the same in 2017 and you will see that it’s changed because all the (modified) views switch to a weird view of the origin…

  • I realised that I wrote I’ve been using this method for 9 years which was is incorrect; but regardless it’s been a long time and hasn’t caused me problems until this release.
16

The same issues you are talking about have been happening to users since LO1. I learned way back then to avoid the modified scenes and avoid the problems.

Try this for me.

Open your TEST1 layout file from above.
Right click on one of the viewports and Open with SketchUp.
Turn off shadows.
Right click on the scene tab and choose Update.
Save the file.
Go back to LayOut.
There should be an automatic updating of the viewports because you opened the model from LO but to confirm the reference is updated, right click on a viewport and choose Update Model Reference.

Do the shadows go away in the viewports?

Repeat that process on TEST2 turning off the shadows and updating Scene 1 in it’s SKP file.

Any difference in behavior?

I recognize that avoiding making viewports modified is a change to your habits but maybe it’s time to do that.

I don’t see any reason creating scenes in SketchUp should be a big problem. You need to use scenes in conjunction with SketchUp layers to control the visibility of various entities anyway.

17

I’ll second DaveR here. Never work with “modified” views. You can easily end up with a mess if there is no memory to an exact camera angle.

18

Thanks for your comments.

@ Dave R, I’ve just tested and I’m afraid what I see is different from what you see! Are you testing on 2017 or 2016?

I’ve just run your test of my test in SU and LO 2016 and all my scenes update without the view switching to 000 in perspective. When working in 2016 all my views are maintained and my render settings are as per my modifications in the LO overrides. The issue I’m referring to is predominantly that in 2017 the views now switch to be looking at the origin.

Please try this sequence in 2016 and see if you get an error - (if you don’t have time I’ve saved a 2016 file and uploaded it here too…

Open SU file
Create an object
Save a scene with hidden line render style and turn off camera in scene pallet
Save file
Open LO
Insert SU file
Create views (front, plan, side, ortho) by using LO standard view overrides (just like in Vectorworks, Solidworks, Inventor etc - the page space settings can determine the attributes of the view)
Change ortho’s style to architectural design style in LO override
In SU change on of the face colours of your object and resave
In LO (if your scenes dont auto update) right click on one of the modified ortho views and context menu update model ref
You will see that the materials update but the views are maintainted
Perfect!

Now open and save the same LO file in 2017
From there open the SU file in SU 2017, resave it as a 2017 file and relink it to the new LO file
All the views switch to 000 in super zoom with extreme perspective. This never used to happen

I’ve attached a file here that you could simply open in 2016. You will notice that when you open the file that all the scenes are (modified). If you update them from modified to Scene 1 in the scene pallet drop down they all retain their view but the perspective views switch back to hidden line because that’s whats set to that scene. You can’t do this in 2017 because the scene now seems to have to have a camera view which it never did before. Just try re-saving the files as 2017 and re-linking and you will see that, because all of the views use scenes without a camera, that they will switch to 000 in perspective with extreme zoom.

TEST 2016 - No Cam LO.layout (902.5 KB)

In a nut shell the issue is that you used to be able to use SU scenes without a camera associated and select the view in LO and now you can’t because the modification of the view (made in LO) is lost if you update the scene in the scene drop down in LO - this is different from 2016. It may seem like a minor change if you don’t work in this way but up until now it hasn’t been a problem to do this.

Something has changed about the way that scenes (without camera views in SU) are handled when they are modified and then updated in LO in the latest version. This to me is a fundamental change in the way that SU and LO work together and is a big back step. In the other packages I listed above and in my earlier post, you are able to control the view of the model in BOTH the model space and the paper space. In fact SU used to do this better than the other packages. Now you effectively can’t work on a LO file unless you have the SU file open to check your scene settings, OR you have named every combination that makes up a scene.

Eg Below is a typical scene list in 2016 with all the view settings being carried out in LO. LO is where I’m thinking about the paper space, not the model space and this SU scene setup would enable me to produce a multi page presentation, multi page draft working drawings and full blown multi page production details all from one model with minimum fuss and no issues with updating files or views.

The scene list would be as follows.

Scene 1 - Complete Unit Hidden line
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex
Scene 3 - Complete Unit Shaded with tex and shadows
Scene 4 - Complete Unit Section Left
Scene 5 - Complete Unit Section Plan
Scene 6 - Exploded Unit Shaded with Tex

With the way that 2017 works this setup now needs to become
Scene 1 - Complete Unit Hidden line - top
Scene 1 - Complete Unit Hidden line - front
Scene 1 - Complete Unit Hidden line - right
Scene 1 - Complete Unit Hidden line - left
Scene 1 - Complete Unit Hidden line - ortho view 01
Scene 1 - Complete Unit Hidden line - ortho view 02
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - top
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - front
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - right
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - left
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - ortho view 01
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - ortho view 02
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - perspective view 01
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - perspective view 02
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - perspective view 03
Scene 2 - Complete Unit Shaded with Tex - perspective view 04
Scene 3 - Complete Unit Shaded with tex and shadows - perspective view 01
Scene 3 - Complete Unit Shaded with tex and shadows - perspective view 02
Scene 3 - Complete Unit Shaded with tex and shadows - perspective view 03
Scene 3 - Complete Unit Shaded with tex and shadows - perspective view 04
Scene 4 - Complete Unit Section Left - facing section
Scene 4 - Complete Unit Section Left - ortho of section hidden line
Scene 4 - Complete Unit Section Left - ortho of section shaded with tex
Scene 4 - Complete Unit Section Left - ortho of section shaded with tex and back edges
etc etc etc

As I said this is a LOT more scene management that, up to now has been possible to avoid by using overrides in LO. I have never experienced problems with the overrides in LO - in fact I’ve always found them a very handy feature because you can think about the view on the page while you are looking at the page and not while you are in the model…

@ Nick, I have learnt a lot from looking at your tutorials and workflow (thank you) but with regard to scenes my preferred method has been to control scenes in LO because it has until now been possible to do it and its whats worked for me for all the reasons listed above. Personally I have found it a nightmare having to remember or record what scene had what view, what shadows, what settings; and then when the client changed their mind and the model changed having to rework all the scenes and their respective settings and names. Its especially problematic if you update a scene view by mistake (there is no undo view or reset view) or if someone updates a view on a different workspace to you.

I guess its a case of different workflows in the same application (many ways to skin a cat and all that) - I’m just confused and frustrated that its not possible to work in this way any more.

My issue is that something HAS changed fundamentally with how scenes with NO camera association are handled by LO. Now that this change has taken place the scene modification panel in LO is almost pointless because the overrides stop the view of the model from updating properly. If the modification panel in LO shouldn’t be used then why on earth is it there (I think its there because it used to be very useful).

In my opinion giving uses the ability control scenes in both SU and LO is better than having to drive everything from SU. Can’t it just stay so that the views setup in LO are retained if there is no camera associated in SU and, if not, then why not just ditch the LO overrides all together - just dont give the option to alter in LO (although this would be a real shame)

19

I get the same result in both LO2016 and 2017. With the scene showing as modified, turning off shadows, updating the scene and updating the SketchUp reference the shadows do not turn off in the viewport. The only way to get the shadows off in the viewport is to reselect the unmodified scene.

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In SU 2016 after turning off shadows, updating the scene and saving the changes.

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In LO 2016 after updating the reference. Since the viewport is no longer linked to the original scene and shadow state is a scene-specific setting, the change in the scene doesn’t show in the viewport.

There’s a lot of redundancy in your scene names. I can’t see why you need such long names for them. It is clear you don’t want to use a workflow that makes the entire process easier so I’ll quit trying to help you with it.

20

I appreciate your help, I really do, thank you! As I said before…

I’m just desperately clutching at straws hoping not to have to change my workflow and ALL my old drawings but it doesn’t sound like this is possible. If there is no way round it then I will have to learn to do it the other way - ho hum!:weary:

Its the view position setting to 000 rather than the shadows that are the issue for me but it sounds like I need to rework how I create scenes and associate them with LO so I’ll put some time into that.

Thanks again for looking at this for me…:+1: