Sketchup instead of R*V*T a plea for user friendly BIM

Extensions
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Hi Jeff

being on windows I use VBA, to script with autoCAD and excel, So I know where you are coming from. So a macro- recorder in sketchup is a great idea. One could recode a series of events using a sample object then apply the macro to another object and it preform the same tasks. As with VBA (applescript) one could have an interface where the scripted code be observed and altered to include basic routines like loops, conditional statements, etc. Perhaps that language should be ruby. But its the environment / user interface and its access that makes the scripting more user friendly.
Include an implementation of controlled interchange to both Applescript or VBA.

http://www.buildingsmart-tech.org/ifc/IFC2x3/TC1/html/index.htm
I assume this is the starting point with classification
Philip

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Quantities (areas and volumes) are perhaps even more important. At the current state of things what is required in SketchUp is practically that everything is modelled as “solid” components, dynamic or not. This has adverse sides. The model becomes a collection of a zillion Lego blocks, as this way of modelling doesn’t support, for instance, the traditional way to make openings with either cutting components or by cutting holes with SU tools. Also, objects that butt-join create a lot of face fighting and redundant profiles. Spaces/rooms are also especially problematic as a sinle space object type should be able to take any shape, preferably by auto-detecting its boundaries.

Another thing about these models is how easy it is to modify them. This has always been a kind of a problem in SketchUp. In traditional models consisting of ungrouped faces that stick together this often creates uwanted distortions, while the components of a “Lego” project must be manipulated one by one.

Just my ramblings

Anssi

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23

there’s actually a decent way to get macro type abilities in sketchup on mac using applescript… i’m not sure about a windows solution

in this video, i also use a utility which is included with all macs called Automator… i use that as an easy way to create a service (little macro type operations which appear in application menus)…

the way i’ve found to do it in sketchup is to drive everything with keyboard shortcuts.

(sorry for veering from the exact BIM topic… but still, it’s an example of different applications talking to each other in convoluted ways :slight_smile: …if some of these could be simplified or built upon, some alternative BIM solutions (at least ones for us little people) may materialize)

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Parametric entities specific to building design and construction are certainly something which can make quantity takeoff easier. Tools like Revit, for example, include wall tools, floor tools, column tools, etc. Maybe SketchUp could have similar things one day (many such tools have been implemented by Ruby developers) but SketchUp isn’t really by nature a parametric modeling tool.

john
.

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I keep teasing you with the Fat Faces tool. Something like that would be very near a parametric entity by itself. Making it into a roof, wall, floor or plywood board would be only a classification issue. In this respect tools like Revit or Archicad overcomplicate things as they have separate tools for each of these, while conceptually they are the same - boards with a boundary, thickness and an internal structure. I am afraid that such a flexibility cannot be achieved with Ruby plugins.

Anssi

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Hello SU BIM’ers,

I’ve bench-marked all the applications you put in this discussion, also does anyone have tried SUperPlan ? Seems to be a powerful tool for BiM 4D with auto-classification.

I’m having headache with the ifc exporting process from SU to ArchiCAD 18, the problem is that the model is colored and all the object are converted as objects and not ifc-wall as walls in AC18 ! So this gives me a model that is not usable for editing but only for viewing…

@AndrewRubySketch : About PlusSpec, seems powerfull also but why that expensive (compare to SU pro) ???

Yanni

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Classifying the object correctly in SketchUp should produce an “IFC Wall” in the IFC file, but that doesn’t bring it any closer to editability. It is probably a matter of the internal structure of an IFC file. Objects are saved as 3D “boxes” and miss the information used in creating them. It is quite the same when exporting and importing between other applications (Archicad and Revit, for instance). I haven’t played with it for a long time, but it seems, though, that both these mentioned embed in their IFC exports metadata that enable editing when the file is reimported into the same application that created it.

Anssi

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Hi Yanni, PlusSpec is expensive yet when you use it you will realise why. It has been set up with Virtual Design & Construction (VDC) & Building Information Modelling (BIM) as its main functionality. Not only does it have Parametric functionality for walls, rooves, stairs, windows and floors it also has parametric structural information. It automatically attributes the correct IFC classification to the construction type and items, and it allows you to associate product cost and labour cost to individual elements, textures and components.
We do have many Revit and Archicad users using PlusSpec. PlusSpec costs around $750 USD = $990 AUD per year. Our users are telling us they save this in less than one job. Universities are labelling PlusSpec as the best thing to hit the industry for more than 30 years.
PlusSpec was designed for professionals that need this functionality, it was tested in the real world and designed by real Architects, Builders Estimators and designers. Many Sketchup users do not put a price on their time as they use Sketchup as a concept tool after hours, Sketchup is fun to use and I understand why as I find myself doing the same. PlusSpec was designed for companies that use Sketchup in their businesses where time is money and accuracy and model interpretation is paramount to everyone involved in the design, build process.
I understand it is not for everyone and I apologise if it is our of your price range. To explain the cost we employ 12 people including developers, support staff, architects, builders and estimators who are constantly working together to further increase functionality, Plusspec licenses are updated regularly to take advantage of the latest innovations and industry trends. When you learn to use it professionally you will understand why it is at this price point.
We at RubySketch are proud of our efforts and love working with Sketchup Pro, I have no doubt you will find the same.
I think that Revit and ArchiCad are both fantastic software packages ( I used to use them) and encourage you to try them out. If price & learning curve is your concern you may reconsider the price point question.

@yanni_roua

IFC paramatrics will not transfure until such time IFC 4 is implemented. That could be years away.

To find out more about PlusSpec you can visit our website: https://www.plusspec.com/

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Thank’s everyone for your comments,

@Anssi : So far I’ve tested most of AC18 ifc importing otpions and still can’t get an editable file.
BUT, I could reach the developer of SUoerPlan who gave me his exported file from his SU extension, and I could edit the slabs of his model → MAGIC !
I really think that the classification is just the beginning, but progress can be done…

Also, @AndrewRubySketch IFC 4 has been released in march 2013, with much more comprehensive classification schema and more features :slight_smile: We might not wait years but months …
http://www.buildingsmart-tech.org/specifications/ifc-releases/ifc4-release/buildingSMART_IFC4_Whatisnew.pdf

Finally, I agree that PlusSpec is a time-saver like any other BIM soft, but it’s priced/year so after 2-3 years it would cost the same price as Revit LT ! Anyway I’m going to try this GREAT tool for sure :wink:
Yanni

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@yanni_roua Ifc Thanks for the reply although I was referring to the release of IFC 4 in Sketchup currently using IFC2*3

It is not possible to compare LT to Plusspec especially when you buy a single LT license and get no upgrades, no back save therefore no usable software. In PlusSpec you will be using up to date software that is being rapidly developed yet can also be opened in Sketchup 8 if you choose.

The distinct differences between Sketchup Pro with PlusSpec V’s Archicad and Revit is you can free form model. No going back to plan view to draw, model in any view ad windows in any view ad add rooves and floors in any view. I tried to design in the rest and found Sketchup to be the best. You have a one click take off in PlusSpec and a Schedule of construction, quotation requests for material suppliers and you also have the ability to produce purchase orders and cut lists. All of your models can be opened in any version of Sketchup without Plusspec installed and you can edit the models (provided you back save). The issue you raise with IFC is no longer an issue provided you are using Sketchup Pro/ Layout for your 2D work. Why buy another software package? Layout 15 is fantastic!

For all PlusSpec subscribers; Shortly you will receive a free upgrade that will make you :smile: Currently it is has been kept a secret with in house BETA so look out for our release notes (should be next week).

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Anssi, have you looked at http://rhin.crai.archi.fr/rld/ they have some plugins that are supposed to do walls/ I have not verified they work though.

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SketchUp is really clever.

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Going back to the original question I think creating connection between people should difrationate sketchup. Basically the more people can connect into a model the more information and useful it is. Having a simple way to Hyperlink components and specifications would be easy. What would be better to have a xref facility vier the cloud or having the model in the cloud and connecting into it.

I was thinking about a simple 2d mode accessed using the plan or elevation buttons. Which then changes the way sketchup works slightly, lines would only be drawn on a 2d layer. A bit more like having layout in sketchup.
Black and white drawings are as out of date as the printing press but text still needs to used to convey information.

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@Dac1, you need this → Components Manager
Just put the components inside a folder from the Dropbox or a similar application.

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Hi Anme
That’s cool like how it can work with drop box.
To get people really working with connected components I think it needs to come built into sketchup.

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I use SketchUp for urban design at an engineering company for large scale projects. We constantly need to do quick takeoffs of area by material and components. I’m looking at the Classifier tool and the report generator and am discouraged that basic information like area and volume are not standard.
SketchUp won the world over by being so easy to get started and express oneself. It would be great if the same ease of use was extended to reports/quantification–or even more broadly.

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I’m almost with Anssi here, the single most important thing missing in Sketchup for BIM is a part of Building called windows and doors.

We can easily design them, we can easily place them, we can easily design the holes they are going to fit in, we can easily turn them into components and copy multiple, we can easily change them and stretch them (Fredo Tools Stretch to target even makes using DC’s only useful for open/close with interact tool)…

The only thing we cannot easily do is change them back and forth and make the hole on the wall change with them. There is no hole in the wall to start with. The closest thing there is is a hole in one of the faces or a pushpull to a parallel face. If things get different than that basic scenario, they start getting unintuitive and start consuming time…

The way single face hole cutting components work right now is, simply put, not enough. Double face cutting components or double hole cutting components, (the method wich uses double cutting components) is also not enough. They get out of place if moving/stretching a face, they unglue when splitting a face, if a face bends on a hole cutting component it ceases to work, etc…

With 90º angles all is more or less easily doable but for any other stuff it’s incredibly demanding…

The result is a lot of pushpulling, solidtools working, intersect faces with (model, context, selection…) and an incredible time needed to rework 100 windows. Imagine that SU is to be used on bigger stuff, 100 windows are not that much, but changing a project with so many in SU is tedious at best. This is the main reason people are interested in BIModelling plugins to start with as all else is easily modelled in SU.

Therefore, on our path to BIM we don’t need parametric that much in SU, we all love it because it’s different and way better than that (though it would help to revise DC’s to something intuitive/graphical…) What we need is components that:

  • Cut holes double faces including diagonal faces and multiple faces, no matter what the distance they are away from the first gluing face, no matter what context the second face is (same group/component or completely different);
  • Be placeable on any set of faces, surfaces, outside of groups and components and still affect those groups and components.
  • Can work on more complex stuff, subtracting geometry from 1 face, 2 faces, surfaces or solids on the fly. Something that could effectively replace the work people have to do nowadays with several pushpulls, intersect faces, solid tools or any other complex method.
  • Would have effective and intuitive control on what to cut holes into and wich shape to cut holes with.

With that the most important part of modelling would be covered, and you could keep focusing as you are on the classifier for the Building Information part of BIM and the nice reports so few of us need.

Basically there is no building without windows and doors and these are not being taken care of…

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Hi Guys. Sorry if this has been covered in an earlier post but I need the answers to a few choice questions before I am able to convincingly say SU is 100% BIM.

  1. Classification Class. I work in the MEP industry so all my models are either pumps, pipes, valves and lights etc so how/what classification should I be using. All I can see in the 2x3 shipped with SU2015 are architectural items?

  2. Coordinates. When I receive a Revit model from an architect or design consultant it has been placed at the correct coordinates. How do I ensure that when I bring it into SU, it stays in the right place? More importantly it needs to remain in the right place when saving it out for a BIM manager to add it to a federated model.

  3. Colours. A simple thing I know but when I export an IFC from SU and import it to Navisworks it does not have any colours/materials (it comes in all white). If I follow the same modelling process using Revit, when importing to Navisworks it keeps all of the layer colours. Any ideas?

  4. Plus Spec. The videos I have seen shows it to be a fantastic piece of software but everything is geared to architectural/structure items (walls, windows etc.). Can it work for MEP items?

Any help on these items would be really appreciated, especially number 1

Thanks

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JQL
I made PlusSpec to do exactly what you are asking for and we have been developing it for 8 years.
This is BIM for Sketchup it also does a full BOQ and everything is parametric.
Plusspec is not just for architects & designers, it is for contractors, estimators and engineers. Everything is quantifiable and we use manufacturers products and allow you to create your own. It is powerful yet very easy to use just like Sketchup. BTW it automatically attributes the IFC definition so you can use the model in IFC compatible software.

I made a quick GIF above, sorry about the size there is a 3 meg cap on GIF. Basically you can draw multi skin/ layer walls, everything is layered for you and editable. You can draw in plan view, iso and it works efficiently, it will also create all of your elevations, sections, structure, windows, footings, slabs, roof, bearers and joists and so much more.
PlusSpec 2016 is coming soon and it does some really really really cool things that I never thought was going to be possible. You can find out more on my website.
BIM is one thing, VDC (Virtual Design & construction) is another.
90% of errors onsite can be alleviated. It is all about efficiency & accuracy, draw time, happy customers, builders /subs, manufacturers and keeping the job running smoothly on budget! Essentially we are all communicators and Sketchup is the catalyst and Plusspec drives delivery.

Just to be clear it is subscription based and it is $600+ US per year. It is not for the business who only does 1 or 2 projects a year it is for professionals who do this for a living.

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CAD110, I do not use Navisworks yet in Revit the color will transfer although the texture will not. I have not noticed Classifications missing with the IFC, You may need to click on the simplify button (right click entity info) to show all definitions
Sketchup has an MEP tool that was created by Trimble also you should check out Skeng yet we will soon be releasing a tool that may be of assistance, it is in Alpha. If you are doing large scale work like hospitals and airprorts I would say PlusSpec is not the tool for you. Yet if you are doing a residential work then yes. In saying that send me a list of needs and wants and I will see how they work with our existing customer base. If it is not on the agenda in 2016 I can let you know.
I am happy to work with the community to ensure the majority of needs are considered and covered.

Hey guys & girls have a great Christmas! :evergreen_tree:
See you at Basecamp!