Sketchup, BIM and return on investment

The developers need to hear it from others.

@ChrisDizon @Aristodimos :slight_smile:

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I currently use Sketchup / vray for marketing purposes (brochure images), however I’m also separately involved with utilising various basic tech for collating information for BIM. That being said, we are still going back to using Excel to accumulate all this information, as it’s still the common ground with our clients. The visual aspects of floorplans etc are done in separate software’s.

As @Julian_Smith has mentioned, Bi-Directional information is key when looking at BIM software.

In the UK we had a big fire often known as ‘Grenfell Tower Fire’, which has generated a lot of debate (and action) in relation to the quality of buildings and the management of them. Buildings have many aspects to them which need checking (fire doors / fire stopping / security in general) and engineers need to be on the ground checking these frequently (weekly / monthly / yearly).

Getting that information from the engineers to then update the central log seems to be the tricky part (Bi-Directional).

Just so that I can understand what other people have looked into, what software’s have people looked into?

I have somewhat in detail looked into:

  • Viewpoint - Quite established but still quite pricey.
  • Autodesk Build - Fairly new to the game, ant not usable for what we require, but has potential.
  • novade - Quite similar to viewpoint.

My personal main areas of issue with BIM are:

  • Simple tech engineers can use to update the central BIM files
  • Clients not waiting to adopt new tech (as mentioned, it’s a sector that’s behind in the tech world)
  • Everyone probably going to use different system, therefore people will probably end up using the ‘microsoft’ of the sector e.g. Revit
  • Small companies not having the man hours to train on Revit or the likes of

The above problems, I believe, often result in excel just being used as the backup plan and the common ground for everyone. Each company then having their own system to work within internally, and then shared via excel.

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Is BIM really necessary for small projects such as one-off new build dwellings or extensions/renovations in the domestic market ? This is the market where I provide Architectural services in the UK & no building contractor or client seems to ask for a BIM service in that regard & as such, I’ve not currently embraced BIM at all.

I may be wrong, but doesn’t every CAD or BIM CAD software rely on the information one inputs at the time of creating your CAD/BIM plans & doesn’t necessarily do this automatically ? Unless you input that information in the beginning or you’re using a previous saved symbol/component with the relative information.

In any event, Design Plans & then construction plans, in a 2D programme, have been traditionally used for many years prior to BIM. The level of detail is naturally up to the user.

So, whether you’re working in 2D CAD or a 3D CAD programme, all this information can be easily provided.

Prior to BIM capable programmes, these were typically promoted as very good 3D Parametric CAD programmes.

The key point of these 3D parametric or BIM CAD programmes, is that they’re capable of producing building elements in their whole form with all the associated layers & they work interactively with other building elements when inserting/building a model with automatic trimming etc.

Once the model is complete, you can then usually extract the same 2D CAD plans for the design or construction process & add more detail such as notes/dimensions etc as necessary.

Therefore, aren’t the more capable BIM CAD software programmes those which embrace parametric abilities whereby they generally trim/heal all the associated building elements as necessary when an edit or change is made.

Plain SU (without extensions) doesn’t have any architectural parametric abilities, which seems to be easier to undertake the BIM process for those programmes that do. Therefore, it would be interesting to see any short YOU-TUBE VIDEOS (by the-only-Aaron) to get the gist of how SU-Pro handles BIM.

It might come in play sooner or later, more and more governmental projects require a BIM model in the Netherlands, for instance. You could start embrassing and broaden the scope of activities, or provide a BIM model for your client as a service/ Unique Selling Point.
The ‘as build’ covers the longest period in the lifecycle of a building. Your service (or Maintenance) could include keeping track of the BIM model in a cloud service.

hèhè

Why can’t I have a ‘perpetual’ building? lol

This can already be achieved in plain SketchUp, (well, you need a subscription license) by setting up a project in Trimble Connect. All objects that have data added can be inspected in the 3D Viewer and reviewed by stakeholders (eg. ‘members’ of your project).

The best way to add data is to use some kind of method and that this method becomes some kind of standard. In the netherlands, a bunch of contractors decided to communicate with the ILS-method, now coordinated by BIM-loket

https://www.bimloket.nl/p/294/BIM-basis-ILS

With additional guidelines for individual software packages:

https://www.bimloket.nl/p/363/Handleidingen

The level of BIM inside a company varies, if everyone uses the same Software like SketchUp (or Revit), it’s easy to be on the same level, cause you could work in the (same) working model and add data or jpeg/png/tables/animations in it.
To communicate with outsiders, one has to level-up and start communicating with stakeholders that probably use other software and workflows, therefore it would become necessary to exchange data in a uniform way (IFC-export)
To some extend, plain SketchUp needs to improve the export to IFC. That’s why @brewsky has developed the IFC-Manager:

This might depend on how they have created the families and categories. For instance, fire ratings or certain spans still has to be checked by the government (manually), you wouldn’t want it to be regulated by the manufacturer.

Oh, and if you have a subscription, you get the Trimble Connect Business Plan, which gives you access to the data extensions in Trimble Connect.

Playlist:

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Our company is around 15 people. People subcontract us for work (and visa versa), but we also work directly with clients.

As you have mentioned, almost any gov / public work now will require BIM in it’s various forms, primarily excel as a base level. However there is a lot more pressure now from private sector on BIM in regards to regulations / compliance / warranties / service info.

The UK GOV will require a minimum level of ‘Level 2’, however from our experience private companies have their own level of interest, but the key thing they are interested in is the raw data (Excel). In short, they want a nice simple spreadsheet to show the state of their assets e.g. are they compliant.

The issue we have is once the project has been finished, the maintenance team then needs to update records. At the moment this seems to be very messy, and collaboration between site managers and BIM / 3D designers is almost non-existent.

I have seen there are a number of programs which can harvest data (form filling software). Can Trimble connect / X plugin, connect this information with the form filling software e.g. Engineer > fill in digital form > update Sketchup file > Company owner views 3d + spreadsheets?

Once again, the key aspect from the clients point of view is really understanding the state of their assets. 3D drawings are great, but they aren’t great for summarising information like excel does. Therefore really the 3D stuff is more of an addon. However if you can do both easily, then I guess that’s going to add value to your company simply by being more swish / up to date than the next. I guess down the line, it will allow your company to be ‘BIM Level 3’ or likes of.

When working with GOV / blue chip, before they even consider you for tendering, there are 101 checks done (ISO certifications and the likes of). If you don’t comply to these, you wont even make it past the first door. BIM is already one of these for UK GOV, but 3D models isn’t required yet, but I estimate this to be more apparent in ~2023. The rulebook seems to be still in the making though!

You might want to inspect @kengey 's interactive dashboard in Power BI:

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Yes the power of sketchup as 3D visualiser / editor and then linked to Microsoft’s database / general toolset would be very interesting indeed.

We looked down the Microsoft dynamics route before, but got stumped by the lack of visual representation (floor plans / 3d files etc). If Sketchup could be that visual, then that could be very powerful.

One issue we have with going down the route of an enterprise piece of software (viewpoint etc) is that only really they can work on it. If it’s from a custom database (Microsoft) then you have 1001 developers who can help you meld this accordingly.

I will look into this.

Hi Mike Wayzovski,

Thanks for the info on this subject, however, I’m not a fan of the SUBSCRIPTION direction & thus don’t want to move from my PERPETUAL SU Classic Pro version, so it looks like my SU-PRO-21 will be my last.

SU-Pro isn’t my everyday CAD software anyway, its DataCAD & this is just great for fast 2D Architectural plans. However, I’ve recently purchased ArchLine-XP Proffessional, (https://www.archlinexp.com/) as this embraces architectural parametric modelling, BIM (Tutorial videos - ARCHLine.XP BIM level) & also has an in-house rendering engine.

So hopefully this will be my everyday CAD software when I get more proficient with it.

SU HQ admitted sometime ago they won’t entertain any upgrade tools for basic architectural parametric modeling when I posted a wish-list, this was many years ago, I think BIM wasn’t on the RADAR back then. The parametric tools I considered were quite basic ones, just like FORM-Z.

As for TRIMBLE CONNECT, I’ve just found a YOU-TUBE video (Check Out Trimble Connect - YouTube) (by the-only-Aaron), so will view this to see how SU handles the BIM process.

Thank you for referencing 3DBI, Mike! I really appreciate it.

To give a short introduction: 3DBI is intended to visualize and utilize all data that is existing in your SketchUp model, though the power of Power BI. In a few clicks you can export your model and all its data (attributes, volumes, material areas, material lengths, ifc classification data, …) to Power BI and link it to even more data so that you can craft interactive and data connected dashboards.

Here is such an example dashboard that shows a material take-off (by using pure data coming from the SketchUp model): Microsoft Power BI
And here is a video illustrating how I made it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIIsq7bDQLY&t=220s

Now, the actual power of Power BI is that you can combine all kinds of data sources together. For example, the material quantities coming from SketchUp could easily be combined with a cost table in Excel (or database or webservice) to then visualize cost per element instead of only quantities. Or, imagine linking it with a construction schedule. (or maintenance schedule in this example: Microsoft Power BI)

The goal was to create a versatile tool that can do almost anything, without programming, by combining the easy of 3D modelling of SketchUp with the unseen capabilities of Power BI when it comes to connecting and visualizing data.

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This looks very interesting indeed, and could solve some of our problems. The issue I’m finding is bi-directional information.

Whilst I understand that information can be extracted from the Sketchup model, can it go the other direction also?

In other words, if someone is working on a spreadsheet / Microsoft database, can you push information from the Microsoft product back into the sketchup model?

In short we will primarily need to keep a solid database of products / maintenance dates / warranties etc (this is the bedrock of BIM) however, we will also need to see the 3D / 2D diagrams at some point also e.g. now that we know Door X123 needs maintenance, when we ask an engineer to maintain that door, it would be very helpful to know where they are meant to go. We can then click on that door to confirm it’s ID and status (needs maintenance of XYZ).

Once they have been to that door, and done the maintenance, we will update the spreadsheet / database. Once that is done, ideally we want the 3D model to update also.

I hope this makes sense?

Yes, that makes sense and it is a trend that has been going on for a decade now: to duplicate as much external info into the model, so that you are sure that the BIM model is the only and complete source of truth. The issue with that is that external data will always have its source externally and that duplicating it will be troublesome to keep in sync.

Power BI can link to all these native data sources, keep them in sync with a single click and allows you to use them.

This is perfectly doable with 3DBI without bringing the data to SketchUp, but by having a matching Id between the door in SketchUp and the information about the door in your Excel sheet. (or other maintenance tool/webservice). With a little setup in Power BI you can then make it in such a way that clicking the door in 3DBI will filter a table automatically in which you visualize maintenance data, for example.

Here is an article in which I attempt to explain that idea: Real Time Building Information : visualisation des données de maquettes numériques avec Power BI - Articles - HEXABIM

Or, here is another article I found on the web, only after I created 3DBI, but that is inline with what I try to solve with it (and RTBI, but that is not available for SketchUp yet): https://www.bdcnetwork.com/bim-bim-data-without-models

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I would like to elaborate a bit more on this dataflow. The following movie will show a dashboard of a warehouse. Instead of doors in a building here I show pallets in a warehouse, but the idea is the same. In the source SketchUp model I have assigned a unique id per pallet location. I also have an excel sheet with the actual data of each pallet (or door in your case). By tying them together in Power BI, you can filter elements in the SketchUp (well, 3DBI) model based on any data you have. In the movie you will also see that I can click on a pallet location (or, again, in your case this would be a door) and see the other visuals immediately filter to only show data that is related to the selected object.

The 3DBI visual acts like any other visual in Power BI: selecting something in one visual (chart, table, slicer,…) immediately alters all other visuals to only show data that is related to the selection you made:

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Ok great thanks for this.

I’m a little pressed for time at the moment to get other things done, but I will look into your videos in greater detail another time.

But in short, am I correct in saying that if the ID in the Sketchup is consistent with the ID in the excel / database, then all info should sync correctly?

For example, you could have any amount of information in the database (maintenance, products, type, IFC, unique company codes, tags etc), and as long as that ID is linked, then you can use your software in conjunction with the database to then filter info, which will then ‘call’ that object in the sketchup file which will then allow you to see that product!?

If I am correct, to get this set up, you have to go into sketchup, assign a completely unique ID to each object, and then that should be enough to then correlate to the same info in the database. You can then set up your database / Power BI how you wish in order to filter things easily according to that dashboard / workflow / stakeholder.

If you choose to add more column / data to the database (e.g. new certification information on a product / updated maintenance etc), then this will push that into sketchup accordingly. This all correct?

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Yes, except: it will not push data to SketchUp. Everything happens in Power BI. SketchUp is used to draw the geometry and assign a unique id to your business objects and then you export that geometry (+ all existing sketchup data if you would want) and bring it into Power BI together with all other external data you have. As long as that unique ID in the SketchUp model (and resulting 3dbi model) matches with the other data you have you can use any of this other data to colorize and filter elements in the 3DBI model (that is coming from your SketchUp model).

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Ok perfect thanks.

Whilst I like the function of many other services (viewpoint etc), whilst not perfect, I think it’s safe to say that Microsoft products will be around for a while. Also there are a number of devs which can work on the databases to help you get what you want.

We (the company I work for) are still far away from making descisions about what system to use, and excel will probably used for at least another 6 months, but it’s great to know that in essence, Sketchup can plug into Microsoft products to visualise information via Microsoft BI.

That in itself, makes Sketchup a powerful tool for decision makers in businesses as it gives them clarity on the state of their building. This can (as you have mentioned) be linked to product costings / maintenance costings etc which provides useful insights into the project. This could once again link back to the Level 3 BIM and allow smaller (ish) companies to then compete.

That being said, if Gov / Company go with X BIM solution, then I guess other people will have to shift accordingly!? I have no idea how big management companies are going to work, as they may have to simply work with 5 different systems!? From what I undestand it is still a little unclear who manages the date (client vs agency vs subcontractor or ALL).

This is why I like the idea of a Microsoft products, as they don’t just do BIM, they do many other services which people are already using. Also API and other integration with other software could be more flexible, therefore it can work across the company, not just for say building management.

In my mind, there is something quite refreshing about keeping all the databases to one side, and the 3D on another. Blending the two is only going to create compatibility issues, hence I guess the push for common data environments.

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Dear Developers

One more thing i regards to the IFC in SketchUp.

having to the one extra click to see the values in the IFC Attributes from the “Options” is really annoying and so easy to fix…

regards
Simon

Therefore, it would be interesting to see any short YOU-TUBE VIDEOS (by the-only-Aaron) to get the gist of how SU-Pro handles BIM.
Right. I’m waiting.

Hi @kengey and thanks to @MikeWayzovski for pushing forward all the info he always does about Sketchup and BIM. It’s always very insightful.

I’d like to pose some questions to @kengey if this 3DBI is able to keep up with changes to the model and track, for instance, the changes in the design of elements, and update the data and 3D model being shown during the development of the project.

I really like how data is being displayed in Microsoft BI but What I’m concerned is also about standard output. So I’d also like to know if this could be used to create static surveys for quantity take offs, organized by types, like walls, ceilings, floors, and unique object like cabinets, kitchen, sinks, and so on as well as if it could create area reports, gross floor areas, per room, per floor, per building and such info.

I’d like to have a method that would keep up with building design and be able to extract all the info I need from the model, at any time, in an organized fashion, but also a way to infer data that can’t be modeled as it would be too cumbersome.

Specififally I’d like to know if this requires special model organization and detail to work well. I understand that a column or a slab, can be represented by a solid object, however, a layered wall or finishes to the slab, are too complex to be fully modeled.

How can we organize the model to represent all the layers of a roof, or wall, or floor, without having to model them?

Is this possible with this extension and, if so, how can we inform Sketchup and 3DBI about that?

Example:

A slab would be represented by a single solid volume. If it’s plain concrete this volume as a direct relation to the report and price. If it’s multilayered, with insulation, waterprofing, roof tiles and whatnot, ideally it is still a simple solid in sketchup that represents all of these layers. The volume of this model, cannot represent that and modelling all layers will make the model impossible to handle. How to solve this with 3DBI?

It would also be important that, each time I would have the work of inputing the info I’d need, I wouldn’t have to redo that work later on, and somehow it would be flexible enough to keep adapting to the added level of detail of following stages. This detail could be due to added detail of the model, but also added layers to the description of it’s element, description that would each have to be accounted for and assigned to costs.

Example: if we need an extra coat layer on a wall, we would ideally add it to that wall, and multiply the wall area by the coat cost. This new info on the wall composition can’t be modelled or shouldn’t be modeled, however it should be added to cost.

So, for this to be useful for us, it shouldn’t be limited to a new way of showing data (which is very interesting), but would need to be able to create standard take offs in excel and be very flexible in how it measures/reports items from the model and would need allow us to keep adding info, as the design progresses, without loosing previous info, but it would also need to be very flexible and accurate on how it reports volumes, areas, lenghts and take into account how and what each element of the model represents.

I hope the questions being raised here are not too confusing, but I really hope they can be answered by your plugin.

Thanks in advance,

João

I’ve just seen that this is an old post. Quite new to me. Sorry!

I use a Bim5D software called Mamba that can extract the data you need from an Ifc file.
I make my quantity take of with it.
This is my workflow https://youtu.be/1qIGy5GLl88?si=JuOoHP9JkEIiON3E
I hope you can use subtitles to your language…