Thanks and will do! Looking forward to it.
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They could do much more, yet they do things and have done much more than google, before them.
The thing is that what they are doing probably isn’t inline with how we see Sketchup.
I happen to use Layout too and it is key for mez but that doesn’t mean that Layout is being used by every user. There might be a lot of users that don’t care for it at all.
The merit of this thread is ringing the layout bell. Let’s see if it is capable of pushing Layout up as a priority. I hope so but I’ve lost much of that hope.
Let’s see.
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So I have updated all my reading on this thread. Really cool that it has so much traffic.
JQL…your thoughts on Trimble Connect were a watershed moment for me. I got a degree in Architecture in 1993. The computer had reached our studios in my 4th year. The idea that the drafting board would go away was still a hotly debated topic. I did not go into a normal practice after college. I went and built houses as a carpenter and learned that carpenters don’t have a lot of respect for architects because of a lack of capacity to understand how the drawings actually get built on site. (not trying to start an argument about that at all…it’s just my experience).
The idea has been communicated here that many builders and carpenters wouldn’t be willing to transfer to a new way of handling construction documents. If this was an unalterable reality we would still have hand saws, corded power tools, hammer driven nails, and water levels. Which is to say that large scale adoption of new methods will travel down stream from the large builder corporations because they impact how the counties process plans and permits and eventually that will mean that the small time builder will have to upgrade to the new methods whether they like it or not.
If Trimble Connect is, as you say, an attempt at out of the box thinking; a daring attempt to challenge convention; and it would replace Layout (maybe not the next 2-3 years, but certainly in the long term) because the very idea of producing drawings to communicate design and build necessities was been transformed. Would that not be a valuable conversation to participate in?
I truly enjoyed drafting board drawings. It was an art form. But having done over a decade of engineer style drawings for cabinets and millwork, I can tell you, there is zero glory in production drawings. I love using Sketchup for design and modeling, but then I have to put it on paper…ugh. I have wondered many times if there is a better way to get that model to the end user. If Trimble is putting energy into that answer, and layout is a stop gap until they get their new conventions setup, then I will get excited.
2 cents worth anyway…or maybe just 1 cent.
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That’s exactly how I think things might be unfolding.
I’m really on the same page. As an architect I really hate how standard drawings are becoming a burden more than an asset.
We have these 3d models that have a lot of useful info and are being forced and forcing others to digest them in 2D when we should be moving towards allowing others to digest them as they want.
Then we have tools like Trimble Connect which make a lot of sense but we can’t move past our standards because of all the bureaucracy and self imposed cultural barriers we have.
And then we have “carpenters” who can handle computers, tablets, phones and are much more sophisticated and intelligent than we give them credit for, who could easily learn how to handle models with the machines they already own. Instead of investing in that we rather keep forcing them to learn the old and clunky ways that they are not willing to and might make less sense.
It’s a never ending spiral of practices that could change if we were allowed or if we really wanted.
But we are reluctant to change ourselves too.
Layout is only here until I can change but I urge you to think in Connect it’s already here, it’s ready for the future but it works nicely already. It’s just missing some pieces to be what we need right now, but what we really need it’s to change and impose that change too.
Fortunately the big guys Trimble is working with are already changing and they will impose the change on us. Layout will be dead then.
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I don’t think I fall any where near the majority but I think that I should offer some perspective. I work for an equine equipment manufacturer and I use SketchUp and Layout everyday. I know we talk about prints being dead or dying but computers have a short life in the weld shop so we print hard copies for our welders everyday. Furthermore the work we do falls between architecture needs and small parts needs. Sketchup has been perfect as I am the only engineer and I have been able to train multiple people to draw in SketchUp and the cost vs other software available make it a great choice. However Layout even in this context struggles. It takes learning how to get this software to work for you without bogging down or crashing and those are not the limits you want to run into in any software. Rendering some of the drawings we make take a lot of work. Wire mesh products can look like black blobs or take so long to render that you give up. This software fits our work and business very well I don’t want to go to another software I just want Layout to be limited only by my creative use of it. Instead I am limited by how I do everything as to not upset Layout in some way. There are capabilities in my mind that Layout should have as well that would be a great addition for manufacturing. I hope this thread gets the traction it deserves because Layout has great potential.
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I really don’t know where you’re going with this whole trimble connect compared to layout comparison… Are you saying that trimble connect and construction projects for contractors should eventually and primarily be explained through the use of this trimble connect and 3d model type interface instead of through a construction documents set? If that is what you are saying than I have some conerns.
One is that dimensioning for clarity (most of the time) should be done in a parallel projection 2d type view not in 3d or perspective. Dimensioning in 3d or perspective can be nice and work in some cases.
Two is that you can show so much more on a set of 2d plans either viewed in pdf or on paper than you ever could in a 3d model, well atleast you can show it in a concise and clean and much easier to understand manner.
Could you summarize how trimble connect will somehow take over layout? I’m assuming you’re saying that trimble connect has or will have a program to create construction documents?
Hi everybody,
I’ve been following this thread since Tucker kicked it off almost three weeks ago. In that time, our team has convened to review both current and future efforts to improve LayOut. We’ve also discussed what we can do differently, because a status quo of customer frustration or resignation is a terrible outcome both for you and for Trimble.
It’s not easy to reply candidly and constructively. I don’t for a second discount the visceral anger you may feel when LayOut becomes unresponsive (it’s real; I’ve experienced it!). And while there is a lot of context to how our team works and the technical determinants of performance, I don’t want to placate with long-winded explanations.* Our business is subscription-based, so our job is to consistently improve your experience with our products. The results speak for themselves in this thread.
I agree that you deserve more transparency from us. Many of you posting here have contributed a lot to this community by helping others find their way into SketchUp and LayOut, identifying and reproducing bugs, and providing highly detailed feedback about your workflow experience with our products. The ‘terrible outcome’ for Trimble is that those of you contributing to this forum petition – I believe – would likely be LayOut’s most staunch advocates if you saw more progress in our work.
So will this thread change things for you? Only if we behave differently. So, here are a few things we plan to do differently:
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Our team can give you more transparency into what we are working on. We plan to pilot a way to share our feature development objectives. Equally important is providing a way to consolidate community support for your ideas and issues, so that we can understand your input beyond a single forum thread. We’ll likely start with LayOut expanding a feedback channel for SketchUp and other products. I will post an update when we have something to share.
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We can incorporate LayOut performance baselining and testing into our development process. SketchUp and LayOut are very interconnected, and it’s true that some improvements in SketchUp have adversely affected LayOut in the past few years. We need to make sure that we don’t take steps backwards when we are trying to move forward.
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I can make sure more people at Trimble see and understand your frustration. LayOut is not the only product we develop and maintain, but I feel that it is one of the more important buttresses of the SketchUp ecosystem. On a personal basis, I plan to make sure that it doesn’t take a petition for the needs of this community to be top of mind for decision-makers on our team. When we make choices about what to work on, we should be explicitly weighing the trade-off between starting something new and shoring up/progressing LayOut.
Thank you for sharing your feedback in a candid and constructive way. Even in your grievances and skepticism, I sense that many of you are rooting for SketchUp and LayOut to succeed. For that, you have every right to expect more from us. We’ll keep at it, with the sincere intention of breaking the status quo.
Mark Harrison
Product Manager, Trimble Inc.
*But I’m certainly willing to dive into the details. Please, DM me if you’d like to learn more about how our team works, the peculiar challenges of LayOut performance, and what we are working on next.
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Thanks Mark. I hope you have or are given the resources to make this whole Layout grievance change into acclaim.
A nicely working Layout would be a major boost for all of us.
Having said that I still see much more potential in Trimble Connect than in Layout.
If we really want to drive the change, we should look at some examples along the way Tekla is connecting to Trimble Connect, via plugins, and how that could, using the right drive, develop into an online/offline BIM managing AND 2D drawing creating app.
If Trimble Connect would fully support the creation of 2D output from a SketchUp file (or DWG, Revit, and all other supported formats), we would have both a viable, in house, Layout alternative and a BIM project manager, in a single app.
I’m not comparing Layout with Trimble Connect, they do different things and both are needed. However it seems to me that it could be easier and more profitable for Trimble and us users that Trimble Connect is pushed to address Layout capabilities, than to invest in Layout if it’s a dead end.
I don’t want to advocate excluding 2D drawings. We will always need them even if I hope that we need them less along the road. I’m just aknowledging that Trimble is investing on a 3D model centric approach to construction industry as a single source of truth and that Trimble Connect is a very solid software that could be adapted to produce 2D output, if it would have a certain development vision.
Trimble Connect is still unfamiliar to most of us but what I’m advocating here is that you consider the future of the industry as well as the current shortcomings of our SketchUp eco system and invest in the solution that can reach both ends.
This would allow TC to pick existing users, and existing workflows, in order to support them, and in doing so, help project SketchUp users into our increasingly clear BIM future.
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Bravo! Bravooo!!
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Wow thearkskp! (I’d upgrade your comments to a full 3 cents!)
I can totally relate to many of your comments … I graduated from Architecture School (U of O) in 1980, and the drafting board was THE art form, and a beautiful craft!
I worked a couple of summers during college doing rough and finer framing and learned a ton about how things are REALLY built in the field. That experience made me a much more intelligent Architect, designer and detailer, and has served me well over my career. Yes, most Architects don’t get much respect from the building trades, because they often have never actually built anything, and their designs and details reveal that!
Anyway, if Trimble Connect can work all this magic in the building trades, great! But in the mean time, and I measure that time in at least a handful of years, we STILL NEED LAYOUT! And Trimble, we need it better than it is now, thank you very much!
Should Trimble Marketing really starve us out of the tools that we need now (LayOut), just so we are forced to really, really want their new TC product?
How about they serve our needs NOW and LATER?
My 2 1/2 cents …
Thank you Mark, for being as candid as you can be.
We appreciate your new initiative to help make LayOut better.
Please keep telling us more!
Short of requiring each of us having to "DM" you individually (which will not necessarily result in a public, Forum notice), perhaps you could expound on and clarify just what the “the peculiar challenges of LayOut performance” are from your viewpoint (and more importantly, Adam’s LO team) perspective? (And, characterizing this situation out for the next 12 months would also help.)
Just a suggestion, but … Maybe you shouldn’t ask us to PULL details out of you, but rather, maybe you should PUSH the details out (via this Forum) to us?
This is, of course, exactly one of the most important “Transparencies” that this Forum of users is, and has been, asking for regarding LO for a long time.
Given your new declarations, can you now deliver?
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Well said and I certainly agree with you there Beamer.
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Sketchup has been perfect as I am the only engineer and I have been able to train multiple people to draw in SketchUp and the cost vs other software available make it a great choice.
However Layout even in this context struggles. It takes learning how to get this software to work for you without bogging down or crashing and those are not the limits you want to run into in any software. Rendering some of the drawings we make takes a lot of work. Wire mesh products can look like black blobs or take so long to render that you give up. This software fits our work and business very well I don’t want to go to another software I just want Layout to be limited only by my creative use of it. Instead I am limited by how I do everything as to not upset Layout in some way. There are capabilities in my mind that Layout should have as well that would be a great addition for manufacturing. I hope this thread gets the traction it deserves because Layout has great potential.
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Ok, thanks ArayaCAD,
First, thank you SO MUCH for carrying this (probably increasingly heavy burden) across this first finish line. Maybe not everyone will say it, but Thank You!
I’ve been super busy on a job site for the last week, so have not been able to keep up with everything.
Can you give me (and maybe “us”) a brief summary of what you asked Trimble to do, what they said, and what they said they will do, and in what time frame?
Is there any hope now for LO improvement … and when?
Or, is it all about Trimble Connect? (Their next, big thing?)
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OK JQL,
I appreciate your thoughts and insights …
I think this might be a discussion about what we need “NOW”, (a much improved LO), and what is coming in the future.
I have been an avid and continuous reader of multiple genre’s of Science Fiction for most of my life. Believe me, as an Architect, I think a lot about the future of the building industry. There is certainly room for many efficiency improvements on the job site (modular in-factory assembly, for instance) as well as in the Design industry, incorporating the full potential of BIM reporting and feedback.
Having said that, 2D paper just isn’t going to go away as quickly as some may wish.
The Construction Industry changes more slowly than some of us may hope. Money is the main mover … show them a dollar saved (hopefully many per unit), and them things begin to move.
So, … (to get on my soap box, you knew that was coming , right?)
As a design professional, who has to deliver a (still 2D product, that hopefully looks good), I NEED LayOut now and for the next “few” years, and I need it to be BETTER than it is now …
Otherwise, Trimble is driving me away from a SketchUp I love, but a LayOut that just does not perform, or measure up, in a professional environment.
If Trimble really wants to be the core player in this new Electronic Building Space (TC?) that we all see coming, then why would they not immediately and radically improve this important LayOut tool as a very important bridge to that future, and as part of their overall suite?
Efficient, high calibre 2D production capabilities will be valuable for the foreseeable future, so, Trimble, please just wake up and listen to us!
So Trimble, just please give us a really good LayOut Pro (and soon!), I’m (reluctantly) even ready to pay for some dramatic improvements!
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I appreciate the thanks!
Really, you were the one that told me to make the thing haha, so thank yourself too lol. Either way, this kind of big conversation was bound to happen over layout with the community anyways so, the credit really goes to the community for all the posts on layout over the years…
I’m sure if you read your question back twice you’ll probably realize that it’s a triangulation comment and I’m not into that kind of thing at all. I’m sure you understand. The best person to speak with about trimble improvements and their plans, is trimble, (I’m not a representitive of trimble and wouldn’t speak on their behalf) perhaps in this case @Mark can. Mark you’re really taking the spotlight now haha. Sorry and also not sorry and sorry again… Lol.
- Tucker
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2d drawings are here to stay. Everyone agrees on that. However a 3d centric construction approach is already here too and will grow.
None of these are exclusive any more. A tool that focus on one of these aspects alone will be less flexible.
SketchUp ecosystem is capable of BIM management, with TC, capable of BIM modelling with SU and Tekla, and capable of documentation but only for SketchUp models, with LO. Trimble connect is not failing nor is SketchUp, LO is failing.
My question is if it’s better to solve Layout’s issues via fixing Layout or via increasing TC.
I’m not the one pulling the trigger, ,l don’t know what is the best option, nor the fastest way to solve the issue. I just believe that I’d rather have a very nice and flexible 2D+3D tool integrated with Sketchup and a lot more industry standard formats but also ready for the future and with much more options, than an exclusive 2D tool for documentation of SketchUp models.
If the solution is improving Layout, then let Layout files open in Trimble Connect too and allow Trimble Connect models to be inserted in Layout, besides SketchUp models. Layout is just too closed, too niche and not integrated in the full ecosystem besides not working well.
If Trimble invests in Layout, then let it also be more. Otherwise find a better solution that is better integrated.
Short term strategy is compatible with long term strategy.
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Yes, I’m hoping this is true … Trimble’s short term strategy SHOULD be compatible with their longer term strategies!
I simply think that NOT improving LayOut (or not improving it very fast) is a choice. If this is Trimble’s choice and position, then TELL us!
But please Trimble, don’t just kill LayOut with neglect, without offering a viable alternative, all the while keeping the users in an information vacuum!
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