As few may know, I use LayOut for most design work. I’ve just produced a draft plan in Layout '24, and what would have taken 20-30 minutes in version '21, took almost an hour in layout '24!
The issue is that we now have to select an object and hover over corners, end points or centres to capture the inference in lieu of just selecting the object and moving it, where the object’s native inferences would interact. This is unfortunately a huge time taker, and particularly when your inferences are corners or centre, as you are fighting with the scaling function or the little thingy that allows positioning the inference manually.
The other issue, if the order of an object places the inference you’d normally count on as native behind another object, you have to move the object to clear space to select the inference!
In the end, the time addition of just trying to gather the inference makes it quicker to move the little grabby thing in the middle and placing it to the chosen inference! It just makes the process slow!
I chatted to a client I convinced to use SketchUp / LayOut, and they’ve suggested their drawings are now messy, as aligning notes etc to other notes or objects is broken!
I’d love to see an option introduced in preferences:
Use Auto Inferencing IE: as it was per '21 Use Manual Inferencing IE: as it is in '24
A classic example to showcase the problem: draw a rectangle 2mm x 100mm and try to find the inference without zooming in to near maximum! Broken!!!
I would also say that I work faster now, especially since all the irrelevant snaps and inferences are gone.
Maybe they could refine the thing, so that it’s easier to see that you are now snapping from a corner, the snap is kind of hidden under the selection and the tool symbol.
Maybe also the magnetism towards the corner should be adjusted, so that one easier can be drawn to the snap point, a litte larger area of snap magnetism
Its easy to grab the corner resize box instead and then you need to start again, maybe coming from the outside should select the grips, and coming from the inside should select the corner snap, (although that logic only works for closed shapes)
Mostly I think one just has to get used to the new features, cause Layout certainly are much much better than before. Have you tried the background check button? It really works now, all the time
I have LO > Settings > Performance > Draft Mode > Enable Draft Mode hot keyed, which makes model viewing a lot clearer for identifying connections etc with hair lines.
I understand quirks will occur, but I’m just failing to understand that the new method of inferencing can in any way be faster!
Luckily the plan I had to knock out this week was simple, if it had been akin in detail to this plan, I’d awake the next day with a massive hangover!
This plan took a few hours, in '24 I’d be looking at, most likely, multiple days! I’d need to repetitively zoom in and out, and search for maybe 1000’s of inferences, and perform 100’s of undo’s given the number of times a scale handle is selected!
This is just one of my bug bares! The other being the time it takes when working with smaller items or symbols, as: 1. You have to wait for the inference, to resolve over the scale handle, and 2. With smaller items you need to zoom in to gather the inference, and then zoom back out to place!
You did make me think of the solution though (for the LayOut team), a button / shortcut that toggles between Auto / Manual inferencing! This then provides an option to collect inference points on hover, or to work much faster by enabling auto inferencing.
Say for example, one is preparing an electrical layout diagram for a home, which I understand many LayOut users do, the amount of zooming in and out would be insane, likely better to import items from the scrapbook at 20x the size required, position and scale down. This is a dreadful workaround, but certainly would save a lot of time!
I think the LayOut development team have thought about the average user, those who simply place a model and annotate it, in lieu of those who make it a proper tool!
I disagree. Drawing is better now than before. Takes some time getting used to it.
Still some things missing, like you cannot invoke the pink direction inference to prolong a line, but even that is way easier than before, as you can invoke a second “pink” inference while drawing the extension of a line, so now there’s fewer clicks.
After testing how I use the thing I find it works exactly like this already… so when you are over a corner and have the move tool showing, one can predict that you are moving the shape, while coming from the outside selects the scale grip. Cool.
Try moving the grip in the middle of the selected object. Ive been doing this for a while to help speed and accuracy. I also place guides that are on their own layer so I can turn them off and on easily then move the grip and it snaps to my guide or geometry. Check if Object snap is on it tends to toggle on and off depending on the component or object. I like the way Layout 24 now uses the grip regardless of how you grab the selection. It just takes a little getting used to.
Again, if you zoom out to see say, your entire sheet, and trying to move a symbol say 4x4mm you have to seriously zoom in to acquire the inference and then zoom back out to place. Sure it is faster for some instances, but sucks for others!
Try this, open say an A3 sheet, and draw a 2mm x 100mm rectangle, now try to acquire the inference without zooming in! I use LayOut for pretty much everything from floor plans to interface design and even wall sections. What I’m finding is for everything I move / copy, I have to firstly collect the inference, I never needed to do this as LayOut did it natively! It does take time!
I’ve already knocked out about 8 jobs of varied types in LayOut '24, yes I find the manual selection handy in some instances for sure and I’m quick to pick up new workflows, but for all, it costs time! The ultimate, as I suggested would be a toggle between auto / manual inferencing! As mentioned above, an electrical layout for a home is just one instance where auto inferencing is a far better workflow!
Again, whether this new system works for or against you, depends very much on the use you are putting it to!
Mate, my actual issue isn’t so much with the new manual inferencing, sometimes it’s handy, my point is that auto inferencing is gone! The time now taken to move and locate objects correctly when zoomed out (so one can work fast) has been lost! If you use LayOut as a design tool in lieu of a presentation tool, you’d understand exactly what I mean!
Though again, you are zoomed in! But even in the example you’ve given, it takes you around a second or two to collect the inference! I’m a HUGE believer that if your tools don’t fight your workflow, you are way ahead! I’m a fair bit different to the average Layout user! I use Layout as a floor plan design tool, and it was fast, in '24 that speed has gone! I find tools that are intuitive keep pace with your thinking!
If I scale my page to see the full plan the move tool covers the entire end of the rectangle size I’m suggesting!
Sorry Paul, I wasn’t meaning to offend, I was meaning the “average user” as being those that simply import and annotate sketchup models. I probably should have said “the user on average”!
Where our two workflows likely differ, I use Layout as a design tool not for just for the display and annotation of designs, for which Layout was previously perfect. The plan attached (previously posted) is all Layout, not an imported model, if you consider that every object, rectangle, and line is positioned, you can likely understand my frustration with the new inferencing model.
For example, all interior walls are around 1mm thick (at 1:100), no matter how hard I try, I can’t fetch an inference first time every time and need to resort to zooming to capture the inference.
The reason I use Layout for this process; pages by duplication allow for generating multiple iterations and copy>paste of selected areas from one page to another! There are literally no other applications that work so fast and so fluidly to permit what is a unique workflow.
When I work on developing designs with project builders (pre-designed homes), I can run through several iterations with them on a video call, I’ve now lost this option given the zooming from the full screen floor plan! It’s been pointed out to me that something similar can be done within Sketchup, for sure, but it becomes quite a burden when trying to work through multiple iterations. In layout: it’s one click - bang - next iteration!!! In SU, this would be a complete layered nightmare and certainly not doable on a video call!
