SketchUp 2D/ Construction Drawings: An existential reason for SketchUp Pro?

and hey @Le_Corb

i still sort of think you think i’m saying 2-dimensional information is useless… (or something along those lines)

but of course it’s not… most (by far) measurements/etc i ever take off a 3D model are only comprised of 2dimensions (some sort of plane then xy based numbers)

my DC for stairs has an XY view (scene 2) and getting at that exact information-- the 2D information- is the main reason for me making the component… i want to extract the 2D info from it… however, it also has a Z (if in front view) to it so, with the same component in the same model, i also have a top view if need be… or any other view… checking to make sure things fit properly is a lot easier (to me) with 3D because you’re not required to transfer/duplicate/imagine information across different pages… you’re continually looking at the same object and all you have to do is orbit or click view buttons.

DC_Staircase_dim.skp (243.9 KB)

(ignore the missing faces on some parts… i have a system macro which runs on the DC once it’s set in order to solidify the boards and mirror the stringers to the other side… you can’t do it in DC alone)

so i can have 4-5 different sheets/details feeding me these stair dimensions or i can get it all from a single model.

do you see what i’m getting at?
if we’re still at odds over this, let’s just squash it, ok? we don’t need to think the same way… no biggie

2 Likes

Jeff,

No worries man. We all have different approaches and needs. It’s good to
tease out a point to see what’s behind it, if it stands up to scrutiny etc.
I’ve learned from this exchange.

I totally agree with not using 2D if it’s not required. I avoid it as much
as possible.

But recently I made a 3D building model for an internet cafe owner and he
needed to know how much cabling he needed to rewire.

He asked plans because it saves him a lot of time being able to refer to
the major dimensions at a glance. I gave him the 3D model also but the
plans are much more practical and immediate for his needs.

I believe in mixing technologies- Old and new.

Paul Lee

CEO Viewsion Virtual Environments Ltd.
Founder DesignerDojo
+353.87.6049599
paul@viewsion.ie

www.corkcity.com

clever and good use of a DC

heh. thanks

not sure if you looked at some of the formulas i had to use to get that thing working but it’s pretty much showing the extent of my mathematical/logic abilities… i’m thinking that thing would be a lot easier to make in ruby but i don’t have the energy/drive to learn the language.

i wish DCs had more individual edge/surface control along with the ability to generate geometry. :frowning:

I hear you, I’m also in the DC boat of haven’t learned ruby yet.
My only question about your stairs, is why haven’t you also added scale attributes, so the user (or yourself) can just ‘stretch’ the stair component into place and then let it adjust the rest according following the rest of your code? Seems like it can be a little faster, once choosing the stairs details, to just stretch overall size. The rest seems great.

re:scaling

in order for me to get the solid components and everything named properly, i need to use the DC in it’s own file and not within the model itself… then copy it into the main file… (i have a video which i sent to the devs a few years back showing that process… as a means of DC feature requests :wink: … i’ll find it in a bit) so i just left it at numerical input for height/width since, at least in this actual implementation, there’s nothing to scale to.


edit- @quantj

here’s the video… it’s pretty much a run-on sentence in video form :smile:

the first bit shows a 3rd party macro editor that i no longer use (i use applescript instead now)… around 1:30, i’m talking about an unrelated mac sketchup problem which the developers have now addressed/fixed in su2015 :thumbsup:

around 4minutes til i actually start talking about this particular DC and the feature requests that go along with it… then at 11:00 i finally used the macro to finish off the DC… i’m not sure what happens after that… i started dozing off around that point :sleeping:

Enjoying this discussion. No one seems to have mentioned that the software in question is only capable of making 2D triangles… :wink:

Jeff, you have said you still use 2D information because the materials you are using are primarily 2D. It seems that most new tech in construction like CNC and 3D printing are really 2.5D and so 2D information will remain, but the way we need to use it will change.

I’ve never thought having a completely separate program to extract 2D info was a good solution ie: Layout…

How could Sketchup or 3D in general be rethought to make 2D information (including, but not limited to traditional construction docs.) readily accessible without getting in the way of 3D information??

[quote=“atomicsmith, post:47, topic:4538, full:true”]
Enjoying this discussion. No one seems to have mentioned that the software in question is only capable of making 2D triangles… ;-)[/quote]
heh, that’s one way to put it but yeah, after a certain point-- it’s a severe (even detrimental) limitation.
i use rhino though… i guess i could of mentioned that earlier.

[quote]
Jeff, you have said you still use 2D information because the materials you are using are primarily 2D. It seems that most new tech in construction like CNC and 3D printing are really 2.5D and so 2D information will remain, but the way we need to use it will change. [/quote]

well, another reason i need 2D info is because of how hard it would be to put layout points etc as 3D measurements… in software, you can float a point in space-- on earth, not so much :wink: … if i need to place the end of a board at a 3D point, i need a minimum of 2- 2D measurments (where the 3rd dimension could be obtained via board or assembly width) in order to lock to the point in space… not to mention, most of our measuring tools are 1D though in certain situations, jigs will help achieve 2nd and 3rd.

[quote]
I’ve never thought having a completely separate program to extract 2D info was a good solution ie: Layout…[/quote]
idk, it seems pretty neat… just that i don’t use it. i rarely use section planes either… i tend to use construction planes (in rhino) or just regular ol rectangular planes… (granted, if i had to communicate the info with someone else, i’d have to do it more clearly)

well, that’s basically what section planes do… just put them in at whatever angle and any measurements you take of it will effectively be 3D measurement (the X & Y of the plane as well as the distance the point is above the ground)… it’s just that the XY will typically be for one object then the Z is a separate object or measurement… combine the two for 3D

@atomic

I’m very much in tune with what you’re saying. I would love to see all the
information bound up in a single deliverable package like the BIM concept.

The problem of course is that people just hate/ don’t (want to) understand
technology and we are stuck with the “paper paradigm” for a while yet.

My prediction is that giant, international design-build firms that are

BIM enabled
Can cut construction costs in half
Make a very tidy profit

Are going to supplant the traditional construction industries.

Most non BIM-aware “Professionals” are going to be out of a job. Hopefully
they will have some nice hobbies to keep them occupied. Who knows, they
might even learn Sketchup.

even in 3D models, we’re still looking at them in 2D… so in essence, we’re still on the paper paradigm even if we’re completely modeling in 3d software… there’s no real concept of reaching behind an object yet or moving around the model… we move the camera but what happens is that the model appears to rotate instead of the model staying put and our viewpoint(s) goes around it… once the technology evolves to where we see and interact with a 3D model in real 3D, the paradigm will shift… it will ‘click’ with much more people at that point.

I’m waiting for this to come out, this summer:

neat.

a couple of years ago, a patent filed by apple was discovered which shows us some of the things they’re working on in the lab… at the very least, it shows us hardware/software developers are actively working on means of working/interacting with 3D models with real 3D interfaces.


Last year I purchased a HP with a leap scanner, which follows hand gestures, fun, but your arms, hands get tired. You need a device to rest on, a pen, a mouse, a screen. Keeping your hands in the air, for other than composing music is very tiring. There needs to be a sense of physical contact. The interaction with both screen and hand may achieve that

Greetings to all from South Africa. It’s been interesting to read the varying, yet mostly agreed upon, opinions and perspectives. I find that the topic of “2D vs 3D” contains a myriad of facets that can be considered or would be influential towards the topic. I certainly do not presume to understand all those facets. Some facets that come to mind, which might add to this discussion, are as follows.

Communication - I have noted, in this thread, that there are various services offered by the contributors. However I do feel that whether one is constructing a building or whether it is a skateboard ramp or even product design etc, one needs to communicate the idea to others who are involved. Communication is an entire field of discussion in itself as one can get into the depths of verbal, visual, aural communication etc. One certainly wouldn’t verbalise a point to a deaf person for example. The form of communication is dependent on various factors, which is the point I raise for consideration. When detailing a building, one needs to communicate the total design from a macro scale to a micro scale. This is further complicated by who is being communicated with and what portion of the design is relevant to them. As a further example, one could model an entire building with every fixing illustrated (what an undertaking that would be). However, to then expect a contractor to now do a slow painful walk-through of the building counting every nut and bolt might not be accepted by the industry. As mentioned in this thread several times - most of us are looking at ways of reducing our workload while achieving the goal. A schedule (2D drawing or spreadsheet or graph etc) would make more sense in quantifying minute details such as these.

Multiple Dimensions - It was pointed out in this thread that SketchUp creates 3D visualisations by implementing 2D triangles in association with each other. This is perhaps a pedantic point but a humorous one nonetheless. 2D lines are constructed of individual dots linked together and 3D images are constructed of 2D planes associated together. This seems to suggest that even a single dimension communication could be valuable. With some forward thinking, as others have premised in this threaded, perhaps 4D communication will become valuable as technology advances.

Architectural Services (& finances) - In South Africa, we have regulated services and fee structures (along with a code of conduct). A standard design/build contract contains 6 stages of service. Each stage has a fee associated. As wonderful as the concept is, that buildings should be entirely designed, detailed and communicated in 3D, it does not make financial sense in terms of the fees associated with the service being offered. The design stage (being stage 2) and the technical documentation stage (being stage 4) have different requirements of the professional, which the associated fee is intended to adequately compensate for (in terms of the time and effort required for that service). Then of course, as others have mentioned, there is the ominous Local Authority requirements in terms of planning permits. “Oi vei” that is perhaps an entire discussion of it’s own - getting government to take a step forward is like… add your own metaphor or similarly here.

Drafting Regulations - We also have drafting (draughting) regulations in South Africa, which contain specific requirements. These would need to be overhauled in order to accommodate the new 3D world that is envisaged in this thread.

I’m sure there are many more considerations that should be added to the few that I’ve raised. So these are given purely to add to the discussion. As for me I am on the path of trying to become as efficient as possible by getting work-flow processes to automatically communicate data (on a bi-directional basis) between the various software platforms I use (e.g. 3D-2D-3D). Perhaps Autodesk is on the best track at present. However I simply find their pricing exhorbitant.

Debcal Thanks for your very interesting contribution and sorry about the delay in my response.

There will always be arguments for and against 2D and even 3D outputs. The only thing one can say is that it requires a fluidity of thought to ascertain which is suitable for which purpose. Nowadays we have the choice of looking at information on electronic devices, not being confined to just paper. (In most cases, Gov hasn’t quite reached this realisation yet! In Ireland for planning permission we still have to submit 6 paper copies of every single drawing to the planning authority. Why they can’t invest in a couple of wide screens and training in how to store/ retrieve PDF files I don’t know. Whole swathes of the Amazon must have been cleared of trees courtesy of the Irish planning system.)

The ability to examine models dynamically does not eliminate advantages of 2D “drawings” This old video of mine might help illustrate my point.

Commentary on my use of SU for construction documentation

maybe this hints at where much of my points i’ve tried to make have been miscommunicated by me.

to me, it’s faster to just draw the 3D model… any work i do on top of that (like 2D docs) is just more work while providing no new information than what’s already available (or can be available) in the 3D model.

so that’s what i’ve been saying but what i’m reading you as saying is more like "just draw the 2D drawings first… then any additional work (like a 3D model) is just more work with little to no benefit other than communicating the design to someone who can’t properly translate a 2D view into real world looks "… in which case, yeah, i’d agree.

Sincere Apologies for this:

A chap calling himself “Grandson du Corb” has asked me to post [this video][1] in response to criticisms of this thread. Please note that I in no way condone his rants as they are tactless, childish and just a bit silly.

However this guy is really persuasive. Don’t shoot the messenger!

2 Likes

Nice vid Jeff. Keep doing what you’re doing.

haha.
nice.
:smiley:

Hey Jeff I’m having problems embedding the video. I see there’s a </> button in the console but it doesn’t seem to allow for iframes. How did you embed your video? Did you dump the iframe> code into the console? I just can’t get that to work.