Mostly true. But I’ll bet a huge amount of money ($1.00) that, should Trimble make it harder to draw on other layers, we’ll spend far less time informing those few people who have a legitimate use for drawing somewhere other than Layer0 than we are currently spending examining/correcting/explaining models that are broken because geometric primitives have been associated with a layer that isn’t Layer0.
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This topic is, in my opinion, straying a bit (perhaps quite a bit) beyond my original suggestion to make changes to the UI only (no change to the modeling engine) to make it harder for a newbie to make a frequent mistake.
Layers are here to stay, including the confusion induced by a name that, in other drawing/modeling programs, has a fundamentally different meaning. There’s just too much institutional inertia, both with Trimble (and it’s predecessors) and in this forum, to make changing the name of the visibility control something we might hope for. There’s just too much discussion here, and documentation on Trimble, YouTube, Sketchucation, and other sites around layers to even contemplate changing the name.
The need to isolate geometric collections from one another remains. SketchUp does that through groups and components. Adding an isolation function to layers - or to the outliner - would involved major (I assume) changes to the underlying modeling engine and induce additional complexity to something that doesn’t need to be complex if you follow a few rules:
- Use Groups or Components to prevent geometric primitive collections from interacting with other geometric primitives
- Use layers to control visibility for conceptually separate geometric collections (Floors, Walls, Roof, Furniture, etc. in Architecture. Contours, Ground Cover, Plants, Walkways, Decorative Features, etc. in Landscaping. - well, you get the idea!)
- Keep the edges and faces in your model on Layer0. Rare Exception: When an edge needs to exist for modeling purposes, but should never be seen. There may be other rare exceptions.
As the original poster, I intended this thread to be solely about a way to make breaking Rule 3 difficult. Changing the UI only would accomplish this, without the need for any changes to the modeling engine. In addition to a flag in View–>Model Information, the two methods @john_drivenupthewall just posted (with GIFs!) would do as well.
If you want to talk about changes to the meaning of layers, merging them with the outliner, or anything other than a relatively simple UI change, then please break it off into its own thread! I’d have made this plea sooner if I hadn’t been very busy yesterday, thus not seeing the tangential discussions until just now.
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Are your suggested feature requests applicable to Free or Pro?
For free users, any number of methods could be used to make it difficult to put something on Layer X. Eg, a little popup saying “Are you Sure you want to move geometry to Layer 1? Layer 0 is highly recommended for all SketchUp geometry!”
One thing that might help is crunching all 3dW components so all geometry is forced to layer 0, or when loading a SKP component (either from 3dw or any other source) there’s a checkbox which is “move all geometry to layer 0” (which is checked by default).
Pro users are more likely to read the manual or undergo training, right? And they have more need to use other layers for geometry or annotative objects (due to the fact they import/export geometry from other software that appears on layers). So all my suggestions are really intended for pro users who manage complex models and don’t really need to have features hidden.
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Both - but as I don’t use Free on the web, and as Free has a significantly different UI, I have no recommendation as to how best to implement my suggestion.
But, since you’re profile suggests that you use a downloadable version of Sketchup, I suspect you were really asking if I want to apply this change to Make and Pro. The answer, again, is both. The underlying problem - drawing primitives on layers other than Layer0 - occurs frequently (at least from evidence on this forum) on both platforms. And they really are a single platform, with Make simply disabling a few features - which are actually available for the first 30 days of use!
Having said that, I’m not expecting this change to be implemented in Make, simply because it appears that Make 2017 is the last version of Make. Trimble has fairly clearly indicated their intent to migrate free (as in no cost, not the version titled “Free”) to the web based SketchUp Free.
It would help, but it’s not what I’m asking for. That would be a significant change in the 3dWarehouse and wouldn’t help the problem of blithely drawing off Layer0. While I might support the imposition of layer discipline in the 3dWarehouse, that’s a different topic and should be its own thread.
I don’t see much, if any, evidence for this. It is, perhaps, true for commercial entities for whom SketchUp is essential for their business, but there are many Pro users for whom SketchUp is adjunctive, and (again, based on evidence of forum posts) they are just as likely as non-Pro users to just jump in and start modeling. On a personal note, I went directly to Pro (because I knew I’d want to take advantage of solid tools, and I was highly likely to want to use Layout) when I first started using SketchUp - and I didn’t seek out more than the most basic of training. As my first reply in this thread details - I made ALL the layer mistakes.
Actually, Pro users arguably have less need for annotative objects as they have access to Layout - which is far better suited to annotations than SketchUp!
Another way of thinking about my suggested change: It’s adding an option for customizing the user interface - and defaulting it to keep the (potentially) dangerous setting to “Off”. If a user (of any version that adds this) wants it, they can simply turn it on. Once.
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I am against any professional level software making the UI harder to use for people who should long since have learned to read instructions before use.
Some people just will not learn without painful lessons. So be it. Let them enjoy the pain and learn from it.
However, I am not against having the installer ask the user if they’d like some “novice” flag set true to abbreviate the UX. It would allow gurus & long time users to say no so that SketchUp runs with all it’s features visible.
But I don’t think long time users should have to manually set this flag each year upon upgrading. (Best scenario would be that the installer reads the previous version’s settings and brings them forward.)
So I only kind of half support this FR. I don’t generally “like” dumbing down interfaces.
I’d prefer that the interface drive a user toward learning, rather then wallowing in their ignorance.
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Dan - I agree completely with what you are saying.
Personally I have use for placing geometry on a different layer and I’m quite happy leaving the layers as is. Most CAM software often can’t understand Block definitions, however, CAM software relies heavily on layer names. The only way to get the DXF export to put geometry on a layer (without blocks) is to put Sketchup geometry on various layers.
A manual should NEVER be needed to understand a UI. If a UI needs a manual to be understood, the UI is bad and wrong. If someone designed a car that had 4 similar looking pedals, of which one opens the bonnet, covering the windshield and making the car crash, it is not the users fault when the car crashes. There should never have been a 4th pedal in the first place. That control should have been placed elsewhere. The manual should tell how to fix the car if it breaks and what driving style to use to save fuel and such, not be a list of warnings of unpredictable design flaws the user might run in to.
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I seem to remember that, when GUIs were introduced, they were touted to (among other things) eliminate the need for manuals. I searched for a reference, but as the claim came along in the late 80’s, finding a reference has proved difficult.
Note that my dating the claim to the late 80’s is just a guess, but it’s based on the 1984 debut of the Mac and the 1990 debut of Windows 3.0. And Yes, Windows did exist before 3.0, but it’s use didn’t start taking off until 3.0.
That’s not a great example. If you’d never seen a car before, how are you supposed to know what those three unmarked pedals do? You are assuming the user has previous knowledge of driving cars or drawing programs. If SketchUp does things differently from those other programs, it probably does need a manual.
I might be a bit weird, but I used to like reading the manual when I bought new software.
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But that’s exactly the problem! A great deal of users have knowledge from previous programs what a layer is. SketchUp shouldn’t have used the same phrase for something that isn’t the same feature.
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A car is perhaps not a good example but in real life examples like this are unfortunately quite common. The electricity meter in my cabin is a good bad example. Its UI consists of two identical unmarked buttons. The other of these is the “never press this button” button, and the other one switches screens in a small unlit LCD screen. To turn on or off the current you will have to press this button in a sequence of single clicks followed by a long press. Using the good old on/off switch would cause an error message to be sent to the electrical company. I have seen similar also on cameras, watches and other appliances.
The meaning of the word layer wasn’t established by autocad. I think to most people it refers to a sheet or membrane on top or underneath something but never “in” it or part of it. I suppose the properties of a layer could cause it to become attached or adhere to that on which it lies. I can see how that may be confusing to any user from any background other than an inquisitive one.
Expectation is the father of disappointment.
The AutoCAD online help describes them as being like the old clear acetate overlays used for manual artwork.
It depends upon what kind of engineering you’re coming from and what you use the CAD for.
Back in 1986, the company I worked for at the time, bought AutoCAD 2.5 (R7) to primarily do printed circuit board layout which have actual circuit layers. If the board has more than 2 circuit layers then some layers will be sandwiched inside the board.
There are many things that are made up of actual layers that can be designed on CAD.
Multi-color screen printed signage is made up of various overlapping layers of ink.
Microcircuit chips are made up of multiple overlying layers of metals (conductors, semi-conductors, resistive) and sometimes covered with a glass passivation layer.
… just to name a few.
So, I’m getting at … that the word “layer” had a meaning related to strata even before the invention of CAD.
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Going back to my original suggestion.
On another thread, I followed the link the the official SketchUp Help Center advice on the Basic rules of modeling in SketchUp:
In that article, Rule 2 is: “Draw everything on Layer0. …”
A few paragraphs later, it states: “All native geometry in SketchUp (edges and faces) belong on Layer0.”
I think that all of us reading this (and other) threads would now acknowledge that there are exceptions to this. And I believe all the exceptions shouldn’t be exposed to the new SketchUp user, whether or not they have prior experience with other 2d or 3d CAD or modeling software.
As @eneroth3 has pointed out, a well designed user interface won’t induce predictable problems for the user (paraphrase).
So I ask again - in a slightly different way - if you disagree, please provide a reason why making this simple UI change would be a bad thing.
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Based on this discussion, I’m changing my request - slightly! If the choice is in “Window->Model Information”, then a user could have more than 1 model active - with different settings! And when you open a model, and you feel strongly about setting the active layer, you’d need to check every model.
Since (and this is a guess) most people would want to set this once for all the models they deal with, it should be in Preferences, not Model Information. I’ve done a mock up:
I think it makes the most sense to put it in the “Drawing” section as I’ve shown, but I can imagine reasonable arguments to put it elsewhere. I’m also not wedded to the wording.
If made a setting I think this should be controlled from the Layer panel itself, either from the context menu of the layer list heading (as in windows explorer) or in the details menu. The latter would be consistent with how the In Model component list can be expanded.
It is quite hard to figure out the meaning the suggested checkbox if you don’t already know what it is for, and you are not likely to find it there unless you already know where it is.
My underlying reason for putting the setting in “Preferences” goes back to a comment on this thread (that I can’t now find - <Frustrated 
> - and thus can’t quote.
It expressed a desire for a persistent setting - commenter wants to set it once for all models, then always have SketchUp’s UI set to their preference. After seeing your comment, I tested the persistence of a setting in the Layers panel (Color by Layer) - it persists in the model, but is not carried over to new models or other existing models.
Basic Preferences (click - move - click, invert zoom, etc.) are currently set in “Preferences”. As this would be a new Basic Preference, I think it belongs in “Preferences” - possibly overridable temporarily in Layers.
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Overriding settings is a quite big no-no as it easily leads to unpredictable behaviors when you only know of one of the settings. Even when you know of both it is not obvious which one is the underlying setting and which one is an override.
However, the same setting could very well be reached from both the Details menu and Preferences! Many of the controls in Details are already just shortcuts for settings “residing” in other places (Purge can be found in Model Info, color by layer can be found in Styles and is also saved to the style).
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@DaveR I really tried but I have not been able to remember to change the active layer prior to creating geometry. Maybe it is because it doesn’t seem that useful at this point.
As a slight tangent I would like to mention that until recently, I had been on MacOS for some time. I liked that you could create a layer right in the Entity Info box. That feature seems to be missing from the Windows version.